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Re: Pensions vs. Mortgages



Hello Oliver and all,

just a quick response to Oliver's comments. I agree with everything you (and others) say regarding the risk element inherent in our current DC system.

Just to be fair, there are options for anybody to alleviate this risk, for example, shifting towards a more 'conservative' portfolio once you get closer to retirement (of course, this eats into expected returns, but there is no free lunch). DB also has its own risks, especially, whe you don't outlive your retirement date for very long. DC is immune to this type of risk since your remaining capital balance will simply be passed on to spouse or the next generation.

In the interest of an informed discussion, though, I feel that Oliver's numbers paint a picture of DC that is way to gloomy, regarding the comparison of returns.

You say that you currently have 500,000 in your DC plan and a 15-20 years retirement horizon.  I used a compound interest calculator (here is one at  https://www.getsmarteraboutmoney.ca/calculators/compound-interest-calculator/ , there are many others of course) to find that with 500,000 start capital and 1,000 biweekly contributions (RRSP maxed out to  26,000/year)), your capital will grow to about 1,600.000 over 15 years, *assuming a 5 per cent return*.  If the SFUFA numbers are correct and 500,000 buys a 35,000 pension, this would mean an annual pension of about 105,000 for you (or 15,000 more than you say DB would give you), after 15 years. Praise to the gods of compound interest! 

More generally, I believe that DB has significant advantages for faculty members that retire over the next 15-20 years -- assuming they do *not*  use DC money in their accounts to buy DB years. This is because DB has the biggest advantages (relative to DC) in the early years of a system switch. Leaving your existing capital in DC means it grows until retirement at at a healthy rate. At the same time, starting in the new DB plan means good initial returns. For example, if you think about retiring at 65, have 10 years to go, and expect a final (5-yr-avg) income of 160,000, DB will pay 32,000 per year. The alternative, saving 26,000 in DC for 10 years at 5 per cent, would result in a retirement capital of 335000 which only buys 24,000 anual pension.  So how does this 'trick' work?  In the transition period (until everybody starts his career in DB), DB pays out quite a lot because the pension amount is based on the final pay cheque which is high  - for somebody who starts at 30 and 'retires' after 10 years, the situation would be different. (Fine print: of course I leave out any discussion of employee contributions under DC and DB, assuming for simplicity they are the same because the employee maxes out RRSP contribution room).    

Let me stop here but finally note that DB will have significant consequences for a faculty member's choice of his/her retirement date -- expect people to have much larger  incentives to retire earlier than they do now. This in turn, might make it tempting for the SFU admiistration to scrap the current phase-out benefits that it offers to members to sweeten earlier retirement ... just say it.

Over the short and medium run, the advantages of DB may well dominate. Most people currently at SFU will gain. Over the long run (and for your young colleagues in the system and those who like to retire late), I am less sure. A better option may be -- as noted by a colleague before -- to keep the DC system in place but to 'force' members to save more by making RRSP contributions mandatory.

Christoph





On 2018-11-13 9:17 AM, sspector wrote:
Greetings all:

An interesting discussion to say the least. My problem with all of this is that it is being discussed in hypothetical or general terms. Oliver Schulte’s response put some numbers on the table, but he notes that he still has 15-20 years to go before he retires. I am like Oliver, with far less than $500,000 in my DCP. The issue for me is that I have 7 MONTHS to go before I turn 71, so there appears to be little benefit to me to switch. All of the information I’ve read seems to suggest that participants have long horizons. I don’t. I am actually hoping that the switchover happens after June 2019 so it would not affect me.

I know DCP contributions will end in May 2019. I also know I will have to convert my DCP to a RRIF by the end of 2019. The SFU plan is only part of my retirement planning, so I have other sources of income to enable me to manage. Why would I want to invest a significant amount of after-tax cash right now to join the college plan? Or am I missing something? 

Stephen

 
One could view the proposed plan as beneficial to those that retire at 65 (I plan to be in my office well past 65).  Alternatively, one could view the plan as providing choices as one gets older.  Nobody says one has to retire, but future health and family issues may require that you do so – i.e., security.  You never know.  The trade-off, for some, is choices now (e.g., paying down a mortgage faster, a nicer home, different investments, ...) or choices later (e.g., the proposed pension plan).  
 
Finally, in the late 1990’s, the University and SFUFA agreed to a health benefits plan that allows for post-retirement benefits for existing SFUFA members, but not for those who started in the 2000’s.  Under the proposed pension scheme, there is the (surprising?) benefit that allows for post-retirement health benefits for everyone… again, as I understand it.  


Derek Bingham
Professor
Department of Statistics and Actuarial Science
Simon Fraser University

From: Ronda Arab <ronda_arab@sfu.ca>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:19:17 AM
To: Ellen Balka; Tamon Stephen
Cc: academic-discussion@sfu.ca
Subject: Re: Pensions vs. Mortgages
 
Hi all,

On the retirement issue, a few things to keep in mind. One does not, of course, have to retire at 65, although the DBP would make it possible for more people to have the option to retire at 65.

For those who plan to retire late or never: By Canadian law, at age 71 all contributions to pension plans must cease, and members of the plan must start withdrawing some money from their plan. This is the case on all pension plans. You can continue to work and draw a salary, but you will pay tax on the combined income of salary and pension benefits. 

Best,
Ronda


Dr. Ronda Arab
Associate Professor of English
Simon Fraser University

From: Ellen Balka <ellenb@sfu.ca>
Sent: 12 November 2018 10:10:37
To: Tamon Stephen
Cc: academic-discussion@sfu.ca
Subject: Re: Pensions vs. Mortgages
 
Hi all- 
As someone who is close to retirement who is both following this issue and has been to an information session I’ve decided to weigh in. 

I’ll be voting yes in spite of the fact that as someone closer to 60 than 50 it will benefit me very little if at all. 

In contrast to previous posters my sense is that 
a) it will not particularly benefit those of us close to retirement unless we choose to buy back years of service, which we will have to do at our current earning rate; and 

b) once taxes related to pension adjustments etc are accounted for I suspect that the difference in one’s net / take home pay for most people will be negligible;

c) between cost of living raises and step progressions any potential shortfall related to paying down a mortgage would be short lived. 

I can’t comment on monetary grounds that it will be disadvantageous for people to work past 65 as I haven’t used that lens to evaluate options, but I can comment that in some circumstances having a top heavy department can be very problematic in that it can stifle change and contribute to disengagement which in turn can have long term consequences. 

I’m a saver and good with money. I’ve maxed my RRSP out every year I’ve worked and I was in a tenure track job at 31 (though I lost some pensionable years leaving my first employer just past tenure). Under the current pension system my income will drop considerably when I retire. Under the proposed system had I been in it at the start I’d have a much better income at retirement. 





Apologies for brevity-  sent from my phone. -Ellen. 

On Nov 11, 2018, at 3:44 PM, Tamon Stephen <tamon@sfu.ca> wrote:

Dear all,

SFUFA will soon ask us to vote on significant changes to pension plans.  I appreciate SFUFA's efforts on this, in particular in identifying issues with the current plan.  I've learned a lot from their resources*.  However, I believe that we should vote NO in the referendum.

The proposal will _require_ all current SFUFA members to contribute 10% of salary (7% after taxes) to their pensions.  This is a lot to ask, especially given the housing market here.  Many SFUFA members have significant mortgages.  For someone who is putting this 7% into reducing their mortgage, moving this to the pension is effectively having them borrow an extra $5000+/year to fund their contribution.    Other members are saving for down payments, sending money to family overseas, etc.  I do not think that we should require them to contribute this money to a pension plan instead.

The question in the previous (2015) pension proposal was quite different, as people could opt out.  Roughly, in that previous vote, 31% voted yes, 9% voted no, while 60% did not vote.  So many people are not paying attention to SFUFA's pension proposals**.  If anything, I feel there has been less discussion this time.  I encourage those of you who are not paying attention to 1. learn about what is being proposed* and 2. if you are not sold on this to the extent of _requiring_ your colleagues to invest tens of thousands of dollars (which they may have to borrow), then please vote NO.

Note that since SFUFA considers this a referendum, they will proceed to implement this on a mandate of half of cast votes.  So e.g. 26% for, 24% against, 50% not voting means _required_ contributions from 100% of SFUFA members, including the 24% who voted NO and the 50% who did not vote. 

Best regards,

Tamon Stephen 

* SFUFA has posted some resources which I found quite helpful:
<http://www.sfufa.ca/current-issues/pensions/resources/>

** I expect that those close to retirement are following this very closely, while those far from retirement are paying very little attention.  As I understand the proposal, it may be beneficial to someone very close to retirement (esp. people who own homes outright), but not for younger members (esp. those who have mortgages or plan to).


-- 

Christoph Luelfesmann
Professor, Department of Economics 
Simon Fraser University