Re: on another point: : Without mandatory vaccines, more campus shutdowns are inevitable

I'm intrigued by this discussion.

James, would you be willing to help me to understand your perspective on this issue?

Did you similarly find the closure of campus a violation of our freedoms over the past few months? After all, PHO restrictions on indoor gatherings were lifted some time ago (then reinstated, then removed, ....) Were we to abide strictly by these orders, we'd be opening, closing, re-opening, easing back, etc.

Or is the objection to acquiescing, without debate, to mandates *in general*? If so, and if this discussion is the desired debate, then that's of interest.

We cannot yet assert that the vaccination program is 'complete' with reference to the SFU campus as of Fall - we have students from a range of provinces and countries, and are not asking for proof of vaccination. It is possible (or I don't have information to rule out) that by virtue of their age, the students will be vaccinated at a lower rate than the stated population-level average in BC. We haven't been given information about the efficacy of ventilation systems on campus.

In the absence of these crucial pieces of information - actual rates of vaccination of people returning to campus, and status of ventilation systems - the *least* invasive measure in strictly mathematical terms to reduce the risks oft transmission/outbreaks would be a masking mandate.

At any rate, it would appear that it's up to the Ministry of Advanced Education in BC to determine whether universities can institute their own policies. Were this to be agreed upon, would you still object to vaccine or masking mandates at this point?

thanks

Nilima

On Tue, Aug 10, 2021 at 8:44 AM James Fleming <james_fleming@sfu.ca> wrote:

I would be interested to see the SFU policy that says "no nakedness." If there is one, I doubt it would survive a Charter challenge. (The convention of wearing clothes is a diffuse anthropological norm, not a legal mandate.)

Meanwhile, and more importantly: the notion that wearing a mask just to participate in the university is the same as wearing a shirt just to enter Shoppers Drug Mart--this I think is the kind of notion of which we need to beware.

Let's take a step back. Covid-19 had the potential to kill perhaps 1% of the world's population (~80 million people). A horrendous prospect. It was in order to prevent the latter that we accepted unprecedented restrictions on our bodies and our lives. Now, however, we are coming toward the completion of a vaccination program that is, by all accounts, extremely effective against this virus. Many of the hygienic practices people have taken on over the last 18 months, including widespread masking, will probably continue for a long time on an inertial basis. But I don't think there is a strong case for continuing to make them mandatory.

And, in any case--to come back to my original point--I question whether the university can even do that, on its own authority.

Compare a public library. Bonnie Henry says "no more masks." But the librarian, out of an abundance of caution, etc., says you still need a mask to enter the library. Somebody refuses to comply. Can the librarian bar the door? I doubt it. JDF

From: Eirikur Palsson <epalsson@sfu.ca>
Sent: August 9, 2021 10:19:35 PM
To: James Fleming
Cc: academic-discussion@sfu.ca
Subject: Re: on another point: : Without mandatory vaccines, more campus shutdowns are inevitable

Yet you don’t seem to have any objection with the university requiring everyone to cover “sensitive” parts of their bodies. It seems banning people from walking around naked would also be a clear restriction of free movement and _expression_ (mostly for prudish reasons).

The bottom line is no society is completely free as lots of restriction are put on individuals to “protect” the rest of society, whether it be for health reasons, religious reasons or puritanical reasons.

Even stores have policies that state “No shirt, no shoes, no service” or restaurants requiring ties and suits.

Eirikur

On Aug 9, 2021, at 8:14 PM, James Fleming <james_fleming@sfu.ca> wrote:

Very good! But I wd answer: An obligation to cover one's face, not in specific contexts, but in general social movement, is a clear restriction of free movement and _expression_. Probably (as per my previous), governments, even those committed to the protection and conservation of such freedoms, can nonetheless validly restrict or suspend them under certain circumstances. But only governments can.

By that token: As long as government is saying "you guys don't have to wear masks all the time," I question whether SFU (e.g.) can legally say "you guys have to wear masks all the time." If not, then there is little point in calling on SFU to say that. JDF

From: Steve DiPaola <sdipaola@sfu.ca>
Sent: August 9, 2021 7:22:05 PM
To: James Fleming
Cc: Christopher Pavsek; academic-discussion@sfu.ca
Subject: Re: on another point: : Without mandatory vaccines, more campus shutdowns are inevitable

Surely you have a point - but my general pushback is your term "constitutionally-guaranteed freedoms" as opposed to basic university safety rules and regulations. Can you smoke within a classroom - no - why because of a safety regulation? Must you both be trained and use safety goggles and PPE in a univ. chemistry lab - yes - why because of a safety regulation. How different is it to be required to wear a mask during a pandemic to protect those around you? How different is a vaccine requirement than the current requirement for MMR (measles ...) vaccines to attend school? These are safety rules not "constitutionally-guaranteed freedoms" in my view - ones that are very similar to what we already require throughout the university. Surely requiring you to not smoke indoors because when you do dangerous secondhand smoke can move through the air and affect others, is so similar to you must wear a mask so COVID virus particles do not move through the air and affect others inside a building - they are about the same in my view. I do not see these requested requirements much different from what we do for safety now - except of course that we need to enact them quickly and temporarily for this X-months covid event.

- Steve DiPaola, PhD - -
- Prof: Sch of Interactive Arts & Technology (SIAT);

- Past Director: Cognitive Science Program;

- - Simon Fraser University - - -

research site:   ivizlab.sfu.ca

art work site:   www.dipaola.org/art/

our book on: AI and Cognitive Virtual Characters

At Simon Fraser University, we live and work on the unceded traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples of the xʷməθkwəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish), and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh) Nations.

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 6:50 PM James Fleming <james_fleming@sfu.ca> wrote:

A legal question (with preamble). Over the last 18 months, our society has broadly accepted restrictions on basic rights (notably of free movement, and association) that have, quite clearly, been constitutionally extraordinary. We have, I think, tacitly agreed that desperate times have called for desperate measures. To be sure, it has been disturbing that governments at both national and sub-national levels have temporarily suspended constitutionally-guaranteed freedoms *without,* as far as I am aware, any attempt to articulate a legislative basis for so doing. (Compare the War Measures Act in October 1970.) Nonetheless, they probably could have, if they had wanted to. Which is to say that the restrictions were legal, if they were, only and precisely because they were imposed by government.

Is it possible that a sub-governmental institution, such as a university, could legally impose, on its own authority, restrictions of constitutionally-guaranteed freedoms?

I struggle to see how.

JD Fleming

James Dougal Fleming
Professor, Department of English
Simon Fraser University
Burnaby/Vancouver,
British Columbia,
Canada.

A grateful mind / By owing owes not
-- Paradise Lost

From: Christopher Pavsek <cpavsek@sfu.ca>
Sent: August 9, 2021 2:39:22 PM
To: academic-discussion@sfu.ca
Subject: Re: on another point: : Without mandatory vaccines, more campus shutdowns are inevitable

Hi All—I thought I’d share this. UBC’s fac. association has taken this stance:

https://www.facultyassociation.ubc.ca/member_notice/message-president-update/

The salient point, in Rumsfeldian language: “In light of the known knowns, known unknowns, and the unknown unknowns, and in the absence of any risk analysis brought forward by the University, we now believe that a robustly precautionary approach is most appropriate. We therefore call upon UBC to adopt an indoor mask mandate in all its spaces and a vaccine mandate for all its employees and students (subject to the normal legal exemptions) in advance of the September reopening. This course of action will not only do the most to alleviate well-founded anxiety but will also allow the most secure planning of teaching and research activities.”

So it would seem that pressure around this issue in the province continues to rise.

Best,

Chris

On Aug 4, 2021, at 2:25 PM, Martin Hahn <mhahn@sfu.ca> wrote:

That line: " you protect yourself by getting vaccinated" drives me bats! It shows such a profound misunderstanding of what vaccines are for in an epidemic.

How short is our memory? When Covid vaccines were being developed, epidemiologists were saying that anything over 60% effective would be really good. Why? For personal protection from disease, that is not much better than a coin-toss. But it is enough to do what vaccines really need to do: bring down the R0 - the rate of transmission

Protecting your kid from measles is not the main reason to get them vaxxed, it's to stop the spread of an incredibly contagious disease which, like polio before it, does not have a devastating effect on most people who get it, but is deadly to enough that letting it spread would be disastrous.

With Covid getting more transmissible, the percentage of fully vaccinated population needed to bring it under control keeps going up. Canada has some of the highest vaccination rates in the world. But it is not enough.

Making vaccines mandatory is probably too draconian, but the interim measure is to make the life of the unvaccinated not as free as of those who get the shot. Want to go to a cafe? Work at a certain company? Go to university? Get vaccinated. Even Andrew Coyne, surely a man with stellar libertarian credentials, thinks that is the way to go. US universities and companies are going that way and so are European countries.

But BC universities? Well, they are currently behind in their understanding, and more afraid of public backlash, not just than US universities and European governments. We have now fallen behind poultry processors in Arkansas!

Embarrassing.

Martin

On 8/4/2021 12:51 PM, Lyn Bartram wrote:

I asked a question in senate about the weakness of the plan, and the answer was “ you protect yourself by getting vaccinated”. But of course this is not the only answer - you protect others by getting vaccinated. I agree with universal masking. It may be the only achievable solution - except for residences. And a number of schools are already mandating it. It’s the least e should do.

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2021, at 12:39 PM, Cynthia Patton <cindy_patton@sfu.ca> wrote:

Can I offer the simplicity of universal masking? The US CDC and others are back on that plate for medium term solutions.

Yes, something to work around in the context of lecturing, etc. but a few "Madonna" microphones (a mere $70 at your local London Drugs) could go some distance to mitigating the muffling. Masking would also provide a substantial degree of safety in small group activities.

Even with the small "break through" rate of fully vaccinate people, our students' age cohort are at very high risk because they tend not to realize they are sick unless they're very sick, and then they afraid to affect their grades by taking a day at home. Also given the relatively high number of our students who have their own (unvaccinated, off at day care) kiddies, I am really, really nervous about the kid-young adult vectors putting (grannie-aged) me in harms way.

I, too, wish I had confidence in our ventilation systems. But given that Dr. Bonnie and Health Canada denied that coronaviruses are airborne for a very very long time, all of our Universities are way behind any possibility of mitigating that aspect of the problem.

In long, we're far from out of the woods.

From: Bernhard Riecke <ber1@sfu.ca>
Sent: August 4, 2021 8:22:13 AM
To: Sam Black; Behraad Bahreyni; Lyn Bartram; Baharak Yousefi
Cc: Christopher Pavsek; academic-discussion@sfu.ca
Subject: Re: on another point: : Without mandatory vaccines, more campus shutdowns are inevitable

An increasing amount of universities in Canada and beyond are requiring vaccinations (at least when living in dorms), e.g.,https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/universities-grappling-with-whether-to-require-mandatory-vaccines-for-students & https://www.fierceeducation.com/best-practices/many-universities-requiring-students-to-get-vaccinated
so it can't be completely impossible. It's indeed a tricky balance between "personal freedom" and "safety", but certainly worth pushing for a safe work environment (I'm already thinking of bringing my own HEPA air purifier to lectures to protect students and myself... something that imho SFU should more seriously consider providing)
cheers
Bernhard

On 2021-08-03 15:24, Sam Black wrote:

I too was puzzled by the response Chris received,

"there is no requirement for proof of immunization under the University Act, making it impossible for the university to establish such a mandate"

For the record, there is a requirement for proof of immunization -- but not for covid immunization -- for incoming students in many Canadian Medical schools, including UBC and the University of Ottawa:

http://www.calendar.ubc.ca/vancouver/index.cfm?tree=12,209,374,340

https://med.uottawa.ca/undergraduate/immunization-requirements

The University Act neither requires, nor prohibits schools from demanding proof of immunization. Under the University Act it is permitted for schools to demand proof of immunization: as UBC's Medical School has done. So I believe that the question of whether SFU should demand proof of immunization for covid should be debated on its merits by the SFU community. I very much doubt that debate is pre-empted by the jurisdictional argument Chris was given.

Best,

Sam

Sam Black

Assoc. Prof. Philosophy, SFU

I respectfully acknowledge that SFU is on the unceded ancestral and traditional territories of the səl̓ilw̓ətaʔɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), Sḵwx̱wú7mesh Úxwumixw (Squamish), xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam) and kʷikʷəƛ̓əm (Kwikwetlem) Nations.

From: Behraad Bahreyni <bba19@sfu.ca>
Sent: August 3, 2021 2:27:59 PM
To: Lyn Bartram; Baharak Yousefi
Cc: Christopher Pavsek; academic-discussion@sfu.ca
Subject: RE: on another point: : Without mandatory vaccines, more campus shutdowns are inevitable

Here is another article on the same subject:

Canada’s universities and colleges are failing science - Macleans.ca

__________________

Behraad Bahreyni, PhD, PEng
Associate Professor, School of Mechatronic Systems Engineering
Associate Member, School of Engineering Science
  SFU  Simon Fraser University

Tel: +1 (778) 782-8694
Fax: +1 (778) 782-7514
Web:   http://sense.fas.sfu.ca/

Surrey campus: MSE 4176, 250-13450 102nd Ave, Surrey, BC, CANADA V3T 0A3
Burnaby campus:   ASB 8855, 8888 University Dr, Burnaby, BC, CANADA V5A 1S6

From: Lyn Bartram <lyn@sfu.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 2:20 PM
To: Baharak Yousefi <byousefi@sfu.ca>
Cc: Christopher Pavsek <cpavsek@sfu.ca>; academic-discussion@sfu.ca
Subject: Re: on another point: : Without mandatory vaccines, more campus shutdowns are inevitable

I think there is a lot of bafflegab here. We know other Canadian universities are requiring more stringent ,measures. And I foresee a lawsuit where someone pits the safe workplace requirement against being made to go back to campus.

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 3, 2021, at 2:14 PM, Baharak Yousefi <byousefi@sfu.ca> wrote:

Hi Chris,

Thanks very much for following up on this and sharing the information with us.

What the Covid-19 Response Team at SFU is saying re the impossibility of a mandate seems to contradict what Dr. Henry said on July 27th:

“ . . . And universities are looking at what are the measures they need to take in their setting to make it as safe as possible . . . that may mean if you’re living in residence that you need to have proof of immunization.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It1afVleAqA

Part about post sec is at about 42:12 to 43:12.

Thanks again,

Baharak

_____________

Baharak Yousefi (she/her)
Librarian for History, International Studies, Graduate Liberal Studies, & Political Science

Belzberg Library | Simon Fraser University | 515 West Hastings Street, Vancouver, B.C. V6B 1G4

Occupied Xʷməθkwəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) & Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh) Territories | #LandBack

From: Christopher Pavsek <cpavsek@sfu.ca>
Sent: August 3, 2021 1:54 PM
To: Baharak Yousefi
Cc: academic-discussion@sfu.ca
Subject: Re: on another point: : Without mandatory vaccines, more campus shutdowns are inevitable

Hello--I was curious about this and queried the president's office/VPA. I specifically asked if the University or the Province had made the decision to forego a vaccine mandate.

I got a response from the Covid-19 Response Team at SFU.

This is what they said:

"Regarding mandatory vaccinations, there is no requirement for proof of immunization under the University Act, making it impossible for the university to establish such a mandate, which would also be difficult to enforce. There are no universities in British Columbia currently requiring proof of immunization. All post-secondary institutions continue to monitor the advice of the province and will take the Provincial Health Officer’s direction on this."

My reading of this is that the university could mandate more than the province is recommending--masks, or distancing, or other measures perhaps?--but not vaccines.

I thought this might clarify things a bit.

Chris

On Jul 29, 2021, at 11:28 AM, Baharak Yousefi <byousefi@sfu.ca> wrote:

Hi Chris,

My understanding is that yesterday Dr. Henry said it is up to each university/college to set their standards above and beyond provincial health orders.

I didn't hear this myself, but here's the link to Liza Yuzda's reporting.

Best,

Baharak

_________________

Baharak Yousefi (she/her)
Librarian for History, International Studies, Graduate Liberal Studies, & Political Science

Belzberg Library | Simon Fraser University | 515 West Hastings Street, Vancouver, B.C. V6B 1G4

Occupied Xʷməθkwəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) & Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh) Territories | #LandBack

From: Christopher Pavsek <cpavsek@sfu.ca>
Sent: July 29, 2021 11:11 AM
To: academic-discussion@sfu.ca
Subject: Re: on another point: : Without mandatory vaccines, more campus shutdowns are inevitable

Regarding frustration with the university's lack of a vaccine requirement: my understanding, which might be incorrect, is that SFU must follow provincial direction on any vaccine mandate. That direction comes from the Ministry of Health and the Min. of Adv. Education, or whatever it's called these days.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

So if faculty and staff want to pressure the university to implement a vaccine requirement, pressure would have to be applied to the university and to the relevant levels of government.

Such requirements are common in the US.

Best

Chris

On Jul 29, 2021, at 10:46 AM, Lyn Bartram <lyn@sfu.ca> wrote:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-without-mandatory-covid-19-vaccination-on-campus-we-will-face-another/

Dr. Lyn Bartram
Professor, School of Interactive Arts and Technology

Director, Vancouver Institute of Visual Analytics

Simon Fraser University | SRYC
250 – 13450 102nd Avenue, Surrey, B.C. V3T 0A3
v 778 782 7439  f 778 782 9422  m 604 908 9954

http://www.sfu.uca/~lyn | Skype: drlynb

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**************************************
Christopher Pavsek, Ph.D., MRM-Planning
Associate Professor of Film
Simon Fraser University
149 West Hastings Street
Vancouver, BC V6B 1H4
Canada
cpavsek@sfu.ca

I respectfully acknowledge that I work on the unceded traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh Nations.

**************************************
Christopher Pavsek, Ph.D., MRM-Planning
Associate Professor of Film
Simon Fraser University
149 West Hastings Street
Vancouver, BC V6B 1H4
Canada
cpavsek@sfu.ca

I respectfully acknowledge that I work on the unceded traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh Nations.

--
Bernhard Riecke, PhD
Professor | School of Interactive Arts & Technology (SIAT)
Director of iSpace Lab | TEDxSFU license holder & speaker coach
My TEDx talk: "Could Virtual Reality make us more human?"
Simon Fraser University Surrey | 250 - 13450 102 Avenue, Surrey, BC V3T 0A3, Canada
Office: 2822 (Podium 2) | iSpaceLab.com/Riecke | SIAT homepage
E-mail: ber1@sfu.ca | skype: thebernie

Nilima Nigam
Professor
Dept. of Mathematics
Simon Fraser University

Behraad Bahreyni, PhD, PEng Associate Professor, School of Mechatronic Systems Engineering Associate Member, School of Engineering Science SFU Simon Fraser University	Tel: +1 (778) 782-8694 Fax: +1 (778) 782-7514 Web: http://sense.fas.sfu.ca/
Surrey campus: MSE 4176, 250-13450 102nd Ave, Surrey, BC, CANADA V3T 0A3 Burnaby campus: ASB 8855, 8888 University Dr, Burnaby, BC, CANADA V5A 1S6