Below the Radar Transcript
Episode 111: La Commune 2021 — with Roxanne Panchasi and Brit Bachmann
Speakers: Melissa Roach, Am Johal, Brit Bachmann, Roxanne Panchasi
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Melissa Roach 0:03
Hi, I'm Melissa Roach with Below the Radar, a knowledge democracy podcast. Below the Radar is recorded on the territories of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh peoples. On this episode of Below the Radar Am Johal is joined by Roxanne Panchasi from SFU's History Department, and Brit Bachmann from UNIT/PITT. Together they discuss their latest collaboration, La Commune 2021, a free school commemorating the 150th anniversary of the Paris Commune. We hope you enjoy the episode.
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Am Johal 0:31
Hi there. Welcome to Below the Radar. Really delighted that you could all join us again this week. I'm very happy to be talking with two friends and collaborators, people I've met along the way in Vancouver at SFU in a bunch of things. Welcome to Roxanne Panchasi and Brit Bachmann.
Brit Bachmann 0:52
Thank you.
Roxanne Panchasi 0:53
Hi there.
Am Johal 0:54
Yeah, wondering if maybe we can begin if you can both. Just introduce yourselves a little bit. I'll start with you, Roxanne.
Roxanne Panchasi 1:01
Hi Am. Thanks so much for having us on this program. I am, as you know, an associate professor of history at Simon Fraser University. I'm coming at you from East Vancouver, so called, on the unceded territories of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh peoples. I teach modern Europe and France. And yeah, I work on a bunch of different things. I'm a cultural historian. So I work on everything from, you know, politics, to film, to literature, to photography, all kinds of stuff. And I'm working on a book right now on French nuclear testing in Algeria, starting in the early 1960s.
Am Johal 1:48
Brit?
Brit Bachmann 1:50
I am the Executive Director of UNIT/PITT, which is a charitable artist-run center that's based in Chinatown, the Downtown Eastside, and Gastown neighborhoods. And in my own practice, I am an interdisciplinary artist as well. I have a radio art practice and a clay practice and I do a little bit of writing on the side as well.
Am Johal 2:13
Cool, well, why don't we start with this project that you're collaborating on together? That times, of course, very nicely with the 150th anniversary of the Paris Commune. And wondering if you can talk a little bit about how the collaboration came to be? I know Roxanne has been doing lots of things trying to get out of the walls of the academy and doing things out in the community. I've been to things at the Lido to other things over the years. I'm familiar with that work.
Roxanne Panchasi 2:43
Well, maybe I'll just explain like, why the commune, you know, I don't work on the 19th century. So, Paris Commune is a short lived revolutionary moment, based in Paris, sort of obvious from the title, I guess, in 1871. It lasted about 10 weeks, roughly from start to finish, although it has lots of echoes right up to the present. Yeah, it's just been a thing that even though I don't really work on it, it's not the main thing that I work on. It's something that I teach something, something I'm really interested in, something that people outside the university seem to be recurrently and consistently interested in. And politically, it fascinates me as an episode. And so like you said Am, there's all sorts of ways in which I have been trying over the years to take what I do inside the university and have it connect to things that happen outside the university. And so doing different projects on the commune has been one way to do that. So we're working together—UNIT/PITT, Britt, the other staff involved at UNIT/PITT, and I—to put on this free school and the fact that we're doing things remotely right now and in a pandemic, the idea of doing something for the 150th was something that was kind of turning around for a while knowing it was coming up. But running this free school, or, you know, operating this free school with UNIT/PITT really seemed like, it seemed like an ideal moment to do that, given the circumstances that we're in and the possibilities. And I'll let Britt talk more about the UNIT/PITT side of things. But I am also a board member with UNIT/PITT, so I should just add that too.
Am Johal 4:28
Right.
Brit Bachmann 4:30
Yeah, and then in terms of like UNIT/PITT and why we'd want to host this type of thing. Like, we're always up for hosting some unconventional programming that kind of breaks from the mainstream, if you will. So I mean opportunities that provide sort of, emerging and early career artists the opportunity to mingle with academics and writers and to think through new processes and develop new work based on new concepts. That's really the type of thing that we go for. And then also just in a more kind of like an ethos. I would say that through the research of the Paris Commune, there were a lot of proclamations that the revolutionaries put forward that really resonate with a sort of equitable society for artists and community members that UNIT/PITT would like to see, thinking through access to education and access to art, those are obviously big ones for us. And then also the gallery hosted some Paris Commune lectures a decade ago. So it kind of made sense that, you know, we'd participate in a revamping of that through the free school.
Am Johal 5:37
It is so timely during the pandemic, because it does reveal just so many things that are wrong and inequitable in society today, and there's a lot of people trying to imagine a political outside and looking at historical examples provides some sustenance and interest in that. I'm teaching a graduate Liberal Studies class right now, we've been talking a lot about sovereignty, how to imagine a political outside something new and and even some of the people we've been reading like Badiou, kind of more out of the May 68 tradition that the references back to that moment come about quite regularly. In fact, Roxanne, I can remember, you were doing a screening of Peter Watkins film on the commune and it always gets used as a reference. And to some degree, it could be argued that it's fetishized, but there's something that really sustains some really important pieces of it, because there's either literature or film references. But wondering if you can talk a little bit about how you still see it taken up as a site, as an example of people producing work now be it artistically, culturally, or even in the academic field.
Roxanne Panchasi 6:55
Yeah, it's funny that you should mention the Watkins film because I am teaching a university seminar on the commune right now from January to whatever it is, the end of April, early May. And I'm showing parts of it today to my class, it's like the day that we're recording. So I think, I thought about this a lot, because, you know, the commune wasn't perfect. And I think in the mythology that's been generated over decades and decades, 150 years now, there's sometimes the idea that if you return to the commune it means that you're, like, worshipful of it, in some ways. I'm fascinated by it. There are aspects of the commune and its aspirations that I think are really fascinating and interesting, and they give me hope and inspiration for all sorts of things. But the commune was also really complicated and had internal problems. You know, I mean, everything from questions around gender to like imperialism and other kinds of things that come up, when you study that history, to just you know, how revolutions end up split. And different factions and different perspectives within a revolution or, you know, a moment of upheaval, or a movement of any kind. And we see that all the time in contemporary political movements. So I, I think of it as something that I get very excited about returning to as an example, and as a model for some things, but then also as a kind of opportunity to think about what can go wrong and sideways, and how different types of divisions within political movements can cause trouble and, you know, be exclusive or not pay attention to kinds of issues that need addressing. So I think if it is like this case study, and this laboratory, and this archive of resources, and that's what really excites me about it, but it doesn't have to be perfect and I don't have to think that everything about it needs to be reenacted in some, like detailed way, today. That's not why I go back to it.
Am Johal 8:58
Mhmm, and Brit, these moments, be it a French Revolution, or the Commune or when big political upheavals happen, the artists are not very far away. And in the artistic and cultural resonance of the Commune, what parts of it do you pull out that you find relevant in the time we're living in now?
Brit Bachmann 9:23
Well, my answer is very closely connected to what Roxanne just said, and that there were so many other things happening in the world at the same time, that kind of fueled how the Paris Commune was seen and how other parts of the world maybe weren't seen. Maybe they overshadowed it. And I think it's very relevant today because there are similar things happening. I mean, obviously, I can speak on behalf of the media that I consume, but I know that many others do as well. And we have an onslaught of, say, news from the United States, and wondering how those news stories are overshadowing other news around the world, but how they're actually quite interconnected. And so from an artistic perspective from artists that are working in multiple disciplines or want to be working multiple disciplines, I think being able to see that interconnectedness of things, how one thing affects the other thing. And essentially, the dominoes that fall into place that form kind of the larger narratives of, of our lives. And the things that really get written into the history books are very important, especially now. And especially as we look at the context of Canada, and Indigenous sovereignty, and movements that are popping up that we need to pay a lot of attention to, and that we need to support to be able to get society to a place I think it needs to be. And then also, in terms of that, like, artists, or anybody being able to have access to art within a society that recognizes how everything's connected. So art not just for artists, but art for community members, art for scholars, students. So I mean, perhaps that was a little bit more of a utopian answer than you were trying to solicit. But that's kind of how I've been thinking through this, this process of hosting, like coming through UNIT/PITT.
Am Johal 11:16
The Commune was very much inspired, the thinking of—or updating the thinking of people like Marx and Engels, of Lenin who came after and certainly shaped his thinking, in terms of the organizing period leading up to the Russian Revolution. But Roxanne, I'm wondering if you can talk about when you think about the echoes and the historical importance of the commune and how it resonated in different historical periods. Where do you think its influences still resonate? I know, people like Badiou, he really cites that as an event that had, you know, major consequences, even if it didn't fully succeed in the moment that it was in it shaped future revolutionary thinking and action.
Roxanne Panchasi 12:08
Yeah, I mean, I think it's such an interesting question. In a way, there's, there's something about the Paris Commune, right? Like it, it had not only a kind of internationalist orientation, internally, in terms of who participated, like people from various parts of Europe were involved. Communards ended up, you know, in exile, some of them, you know, being shipped off to places like New Caledonia as prisoners, political prisoners, but others, you know, sort of fleeing to England, after the end of the commune like that… It had that kind of reach at the time. It certainly, it erupted in connection with international events. And then people were observing it and responding to it, both fearfully and hopefully, right? Conservatives around the world, seeing this moment of revolutionary upheaval, and being afraid of communism, being afraid of internationalisms of various kinds, being afraid of anti capitalism and secularism, those kinds of things.
But then over the long haul, like the last 150 years, the way that the commune has become a kind of emblem for the possibilities of revolutionary change, social and economic change, you know, cultural and political change. It has a very particular kind of mythological status, like so Marx writes about it, as it's happening. And then, immediately afterwards in the Civil War and in France. And then, you know, there's that famous kind of apocryphal story about Lenin, like dancing in the snow when he gets to day—what is it, 73 or 74—of the Russian Revolution because they outlived the Paris Commune. And then all around the world, there are references to the Commune as it's happening, and then later on, you know, seeing it as this kind of moment of possibility, and kind of like, in ways that I mentioned earlier, like a set of resources, a model, all kinds of things. And I was talking to somebody about this the other day, I think part of the reason it's so compelling is because of all the radical changes that this brief revolution tried to enact but also because it was sort of like unfinished business, it was cut off, it was destroyed, it was eliminated quite early on. And so some of the longer processes that revolutions undergo and the disillusion that happens, like that was there in the commune, but it's only 10 weeks before it's crushed. Right? So I think that's part of why it's so compelling to people, one of the reasons, is because there wasn't that long drawn out demise. Right. And, yeah, I think there's a lot of drama and it's ending and a lot of hope, and it's really short life. And so I think that's one of the reasons why it has such a far reach.
And then you know, because participants involved in the Commune, you know, the composer of The Internationale, like there's this kind of way in which it spoke to a global context, even though people wouldn't have used that term “global” at the time. And I think it's still really does people seeing various kinds of uprisings and moments of upheaval, as referencing the Commune, using the imagery from the Commune, referring to its stories, and slogans and things like that. Just like ‘68, just like 1968 had that kind of reach. And 1968 referred to the commune, and 1917 refers to the Commune. 1968 refers to 1917 and the Commune and it kind of keeps building like that. And then even as recently as last year, well Occupy certainly did that in 2011. So a while ago, but, but even as recently as some of the movements about occupying space last year, you know, around Black Lives Matter and other political movements, also referred back to the Commune again. So there's something about that contained space, and contained time of that episode in the 19th century that really resonates with people, I think, still.
Am Johal 16:11
All right. So what do you have in mind for the free school? What are some of the programming that you're going to be doing? I'm super excited, because I don't even know yet. So...
Brit Bachmann 16:25
I mean, the programming is very much compiled by Roxanne with the support of her class as well, and the other folks that are working with us to produce this. Lauren Lavery on the side of UNIT/PITT. There's going to be screenings, there's going to be readings, there's going to be a podcast, live events, artistic performances, a real mishmash. So every single week, people who register will get emails sent to them with content for that week. But also people really need to register to participate, they can sign up for a Google Calendar to get alerts. And also they can visit UNIT/PITT's website, unitpitt.ca. There's a little header that says La Commune 2021, and all the content will be uploaded there. And then simultaneously as this is happening, we have an artist in residence program. So we have 10 emerging and early career artists with very different practices, and they're all going to be responding to an aspect of the free school that resonates with them and their work. And I want to list their names that haven't been formally announced yet, but maybe it will by the time this comes out. They are: Ada Dragomir, Alysha Seriani, Emily Guerrero, Kara Stanton, Mary Rusak, Pippa Lattey, Rhys Edwards, Ryan Ermacora, Stephanie Gagne, and Manuel Axel Strain. And so that shortlist was determined from the UNIT/PITT programming committee and then the final 10 were selected by Roxanne. We're so excited to see what they're gonna come up with.
Am Johal 18:06
Amazing, it's sort of clandestine organized, disorganized, messiness. Yeah, things are gonna happen. It's super exciting, and particularly in a pandemic context where we're starved for new things. I'm really excited about what you're putting on the table.
Roxanne, I'm wondering for people who are not as familiar with the Commune, was there literature, fiction or other writing from that period in particular, that people could look to, to get a sense of what that moment felt like for people who were involved inside of the movement?
Roxanne Panchasi 18:48
Yeah, I mean, as, as we've said, already, you know, artists and writers were involved in the Commune and commented on it. So there are things like that. And we're going to be sharing some of that kind of thing through the free school. So sharing, not just the “what happened to the commune,” or documents or declarations and things like that, but also… And you know, what historians and other scholars have had to say about it, but also some of the stuff that was generated at the time. I just recently spoke with one of the scholars who works on the response to the Commune in the United States, Michelle Coghlan, and she's one of the people I speak with, during the podcast in the podcast series for the free school. And she, you know, talked about—she's written an entire book called Sensational Internationalism about all the popular culture, poetry and novels and various kinds of things that Americans just Americans wrote about the commune. And there are things like that in various parts of the world around the 19th century. And since then, so there's Watkins' film if we come all the way to the, you know, 21st century late 20th century in terms of projects, but there's a whole bunch of stuff in between and anything like that, that we're able to provide access to or let people know about, that's stuff that we're going to be sort of sharing. Ao that there's, there's content in the free school that's generated, as Brit mentioned, like by the artists. The students who are taking my SFU seminar are generating some content and pages of background and analysis of sources and suggestions for further reading for people. But we're also going to kind of operate a bit as a clearinghouse for like any other kind of commemorative events or happenings or publications during this period of the 150th anniversary, but also other kinds of things, collections of photographs, links to poems to other types of writing that is open access for people to to learn more in all sorts of different ways about the commune, not just in a traditional academic way.
Am Johal 20:54
Yeah, Roxanne, Brit, this is like this is like a case study in how to build community in the middle of a pandemic. This is fantastic. I love it. And plus, I'm going to make sure everyone in my class knows about it, because it's just perfect.
Roxanne Panchasi 21:08
That's great!
Am Johal 21:08
And we're gonna link in our episode to the UNIT/PITT website so you can follow through and, and get on the email list. So you know what's happening there. Thank you for doing this and taking on such interesting programming, and we hope it goes far and wide and people tune in and celebrate and really think about what was attempting to happen in the middle of the commune, all the lessons of it but also what we can learn about it today. Thank you.
Roxanne Panchasi 21:40
No, thank you.
Brit Bachmann 21:42
Yeah, thank you so much.
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Melissa Roach 21:47
Below the Radar is a knowledge democracy podcast created by SFU's Vancity Office of Community Engagement. Thank you for listening to our conversation about La Commune 2021 with Roxanne Panchasi and Brit Bachmann. You can find out more about the free school at the link in the show notes. Thanks, again for listening and we'll see you next time on Below the Radar.
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