Below the Radar Transcript
Episode 139: Toast, Jams & Anti-Fascist Karaoke — with Andrea Creamer
Speakers: Kathy Feng, Am Johal, Andrea Creamer
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Kathy Feng 0:02
Hi, I’m Kathy Feng with Below the Radar, a knowledge democracy podcast. Below the Radar is recorded on the territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh peoples.
This week, we are excited to be joined by Toronto-based artist, organizer, and community engagement pro Andrea Creamer. Andrea is an alumna of the SFU School for the Contemporary Arts, and was the very first staff member in SFU’s Vancity Office of Community Engagement. She and Am chat about her roots in arts and organizing here in Vancouver, and her interest in the role of arts, culture, and social prescribing in community health. I hope you enjoy this conversation with our friend, Andrea!
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Am Johal 0:44
Welcome to Below the Radar. Delighted you could join us again this week. We have a very special guest, Andrea Creamer. A former student at SFU's School for the Contemporary Arts, but also a long time person who built up SFU's Vancity Office of Community Engagement. We miss her every day. Welcome, Andrea, thank you for joining us.
Andrea Creamer 1:06
Hi, Am. Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Am Johal 1:11
And maybe we can start by you introducing yourself a little bit.
Andrea Creamer 1:15
Yeah. My name is Andrea Creamer and I am a community organizer. I'm a renter, an artist and a worker. And I'm calling in from Toronto, Tkaronto, where the trees stand in the water. It's the home of many Indigenous people. Haudenosaunee, the Anishnaabe, Ojibwe, the Huron-Wendat and the Mississaugas of the Credit. Yeah, I don't know what else to say. I'm a person. I'm here.
Am Johal 1:55
Well, Andrea, when I first met you, you were a student at the School for the Contemporary Arts, doing a directed studies when SFU had just moved into the Woodward's building. It was full of you know, many controversies, questions of gentrification and you were trying to make sense of it as a as a student, and you were doing some radio interviews and that type of thing, wondering if you can speak a little bit to being visual art student at SFU during that period when it was moving into a new building.
Andrea Creamer 2:28
It's starting to rain so I have to move. Yeah, just a second. I'm sorry.
Am Johal 2:34
No, no problem at all. East Coast weather. Well, we're not going to edit this out. We should leave that in. I like the....
Andrea Creamer 2:41
I'll just move. I even checked the weather. Okay. I'm inside, and somewhat drier. Thanks for that.
Am Johal 2:51
Okay, we did a little jump cut in between there. I met you a long time ago when SFU was moving into the Woodward's building, it was a lot of... it was a very controversial development, very polarizing development. And you were doing a directed studies and doing interviews in the neighbourhood around the impact of the Woodward's building in the neighbourhood. I'm wondering if you can just speak a little bit to being a visual art student when you began to take courses at Woodward's. You'd been at Burnaby Mountain before that, and kind of trying to make sense of the context in which you'd walked into.
Andrea Creamer 3:27
Yeah, I think you know, even on the mountain, the visual arts program, it felt like a kind of out of place program. It didn't have a huge kind of visibility. And then there was the studio on 611 Alexander and I think coming from there and then moving into the Woodward's space, this kind of new building. As students, we were really aware that we were kind of moving through a contested space. And it felt really exciting to have, you know, a space that wasn't like leaking on us that there was like new facilities for us to use. But then we were very much moving through a kind of urban living room that was other people's places. And to move between the two like 611 Alexander, and the Woodward's building, you're kind of just consistently confronted with, like, how to make sense of it all. You know, it became really apparent to me that there were some faculty that had this idea that we were somehow supposed to, like, it was an unwritten rule, we were not supposed to acknowledge maybe where we were or not be so direct about it to kind of address it either in arts practice or as students. It just felt like a kind of no man's land that we were entering into. And it was confusing that first year, and kind of the whole time I was there.
Am Johal 4:51
It was wonderful to work with you in those first few years. I think it was something like five, if it wasn't five, it was somewhere close to there. When you were a student, when we were just building out some of our community partnerships, starting to do programming, and certainly a lot of important issues that the community wanted us to amplify housing, homelessness, addiction, economic development, you know, many other areas. And I'm wondering, in terms of being a visual arts student, how the social context of the neighbourhood shaped the experience, not just for yourself, but for other students in terms of what you learned outside of the classroom, maybe?
Andrea Creamer 5:31
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, working with you, Althea was teaching artist book class as a sessional at that point, and I think it was just there was a group of us that really had realized that we could be in the same space, or think through how space is shared with our neighbours in the neighbourhood. And I think, you know, when I was first kind of just volunteering, and then working with the office, understanding that there was, you know, ways and connections and relationships that could be made, that were pathways into being able to make work that maybe was directly addressing some of these things, or indirectly addressing some of the issues. And, you know, I think, you know, the relationships in the work that I made when I was a student at SFU, some of it still really resonates with me. I know, some of it has even come up, as you know, being asked to exhibit as recently as last summer, because I think it's still really, it resonates, as you know, like trying to figure out how we, how we coexisted, share space and how privileges acknowledged, you know. Woodward's was, and remains a very privileged, you know, beacon in the neighbourhood. And it's both a kind of privilege and a problem to kind of go there and then realize that you're contextually part of a, of a landscape that is very complex. And I think it's complicated to be a student and have the confidence and find the right people, you know, I think getting connected with you in the office, getting connected with, you know, the different organizations and getting the opportunity to do Super Cool Tuesdays, really is what gave me the confidence to kind of have a voice or explore the kind of voice to make work in the way that I was.
Am Johal 7:20
Yeah, we haven't been able to do Super Cool Tuesdays for a few years, partially pandemic-related, but wondering if you can speak to some of the programming that you did there.
Andrea Creamer 7:31
Yeah, Super Cool Tuesdays is something that I still hold very near and dear, and it happened out of the Interurban Gallery. And, you know, I really kind of used the relationships and the artists that we're getting to, you know, either the faculty or, you know, the artist talks that the faculty organized, and use that as like a launching or leveraging kind of point, to build the program. I really, I think, for my own self, I'm naturally inclined to be interested in art that has a political kind of voice to it or idea. It may be not so focused on materiality, or it's, it's not necessarily always exhibited in a gallery, or I was interested in things that I wanted to share with folks that I couldn't assume that maybe had art education, but surprisingly, a lot of them were quite versed in how to look at art and think about art. And I think that only kind of, you know, solidified the idea that art really can be for everybody, especially when we kind of open those spaces to people. And I think the artists that exhibited, you know, there were so many unique kind of moments that happened, you know, when like, Althea came and spoke about the Carrall Street project, like there was people That were attending that had been a part of the Carrall Street project and remembered when it was being filmed. You know, I think about when Cathy Busby came and spoke and like, I had no idea that, you know, Cathy's parents, I think in Brantford, Ontario, used to run an outreach centre. And she had a lot of like, knowledge and experience of harm reduction and kind of, you know, street level, like homeless outreach and, and the, you know, the people attending, like really gravitated towards that. And they had a great conversation about Drinkers Lounge, which was just starting and, you know, her brother had HIV and like, there was people that were you know, there was just these unique moments like I felt really in touch with like, figuring out what interested me, I realized that other people were also interested in and I think that it would resonate with them. And that was a really valuable kind of experience. Yeah.
Am Johal 9:43
When I think about your time in Vancouver, I think of two other things as well, many things, but I think of kickball and the Toast Collective. So I want to first of all talk to you about your relationship to kickball here and whether you're still involved in it in Toronto.
Andrea Creamer 9:59
Oh, I'm not and I really wish that I was. There is kickball in Toronto. But they keep score. And there's like a lot more rules and they play on like a regulated field. And it really is it doesn't have the kind of freedom that we were expressing in Vancouver which was...
Am Johal 10:21
There's an East Coast kickball and a West Coast kickball, just completely different.
Andrea Creamer 10:25
Yeah, but even Vancouver is different than Portland and Oregon because Vancouver, we did play in the Cascadian World Championships a number of years in a row. We went down there and we had less rules and more just kind of antics then Portland and Seattle folks. So I do really miss that. I play a lot of softball in Toronto.
Am Johal 10:47
With the Toast Collective, you organized it and were part of the collective involved in it. And as you mentioned, just before we got on air, that you're still the leaseholder on it. There's such a crisis of art space in the city, and trying to make things work. But wondering if you can speak a little bit to the origins of that project and some of your time there. I certainly remember Toast and Jams as well.
Andrea Creamer 11:12
Yeah, yeah. So the Toast Collective was started from some people that met at kickball, Charles Latimer put up a poster and invited people to Robson Park. And then from there, some of those kinds of new friendships formed, and then the storefront below his apartment came up for rent, and a group of people decided to rent it. They had originally wanted it as a cafe, and it was gonna have lots of breads and different spreads. And did you just hear that thunder?
Am Johal 11:43
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrea Creamer 11:45
Yeah, it's a good thing I came inside. And so it was gonna have lots of breads and different spreads. And from there, the cafe never really materialized. There was a vegetable delivery, bicycle vegetable delivery that happened, like one of Vancouver's first kind of bike delivery services in that way, operated over there for a period of time. And there was a great Monday night event called barter town. And then, you know, the Toast really just became a place for the people that were involved, who imagined what happened in that space. And so Charlie was the leaseholder for a couple of years and had a wonderful relationship with our landlords. And then when he decided to take a new job, or like a promotion in his job and move back across to Montreal, I took over the lease. And, you know, they had been doing like, dance parties and pirate radio and movie screenings. And then, you know, I came in and wanted to do some, like art exhibitions. And, you know, the Sunday Shortstack people at that point, had been operating for like a couple of years, and I think needed a bit of a break. And so then yeah, Claire, and I organized Toast and Jams, which was like experimental noise, music and toast and toppings. And it was always the kind of place where you get to share the space with your friends that make things or create things. And so I mean, I have to say, I'm very excited that, you know, I'm still kind of tangentially involved. We, you know, we know that there's a crisis of space in Vancouver, and it has always felt a little bit, we faced a significant rent increase when we passed the lease from Charlie to myself. And so we just the natural kind of thing was to kind of just keep it as-is. There's a couple of other people that are now on the lease with me, but we haven't wanted to do it just officially because we were worried about what that could mean for the space because it's unlike some of the other kind of hybrid art spaces, or exhibition spaces in the city there isn't really room for studios. It is just such a small little box with a kitchen. So I know since I haven't been directly involved in the programming, they've been doing a lot of music before the pandemic. They were doing a lot of music shows, and some radio and podcast things were happening out of there. And then during the pandemic, the relationship with the Arts and Cultural Workers Union kind of solidified and the Vancouver Sewing Labour Union is now in the space operating some of their mask sewing, which is really exciting. Also, for the first time ever, this last year, the Toast officially got like legitimate grants from the City of Vancouver, the City of Vancouver Cultural Services staff reached out and indicated that they know that it's a valuable place and they want to I think with all of the condo development that's about to break ground right there, they have tried to indicate that they'd like to see the space continue to thrive.
Am Johal 14:57
That's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing that it's still going and if it's a way for it to stay,
Andrea Creamer 15:02
It receives no operational funding, no significant grant money has ever really gone in there. It is just people's own, you know, bits and bobs of money to keep it going.
Am Johal 15:13
Amazing. You went to Toronto to do a master's and wonder if you can speak a little bit to what you did with your graduate degree, your research and how it shaped or influenced your thinking about your own practice.
Andrea Creamer 15:30
Yeah, so I came here five years ago, this August, actually, in 2016. And I attended U of T's master's of visual studies. And I did a 18 month-long master's program. And, you know, I think the first year was incredibly challenging. You know, I know that you're aware, there was some significant changes in my life, my mother passed, etc. I moved across the country, it was a bit of a community crisis, I think, in some ways for myself, but, you know, I decided to stay enrolled. And the program uniquely offers like a summer opportunity that's like a residency or a work kind of co-op, they provide a, you know, a small stipend of funding for each of the students to kind of choose somewhere to go. And so I went to Italy, and I participated with Free Home University. And I had just kind of started, just before I left, I think I had kind of grasped a bit of a thought what I wanted to work with, which was the idea of anti-fascist karaoke. And then I landed in Italy, surrounded by a lot of anti-fascist folks, it was such a mixed bag of people from kind of all over, but there was a lot of wine, and a lot of, you know, socialists singing. And really, when I came back to Toronto, I felt quite energized about my ideas. And so I kind of turned my research to Rock against Racism, which is a kind of unique moment in time in England, in the late 70s. It was a 16 year period of really kind of intense intersectional, music, organizing, labour organizing all against the National Front. And you know, from there, yeah, kind of just I wrote a manual, my thesis is the form of an emergency manual, or like a how to manual for the state of social emergency. You know, I felt even, it's really interesting because during the pandemic, I've actually somebody another student asked me if they could see my thesis, and I said, sure, and if anyone's you know, I know you wrote your, your PhD and stuff that you kind of end up with, like a really bad relationship with that piece of writing or you like, you pick it up again, and you're like, Whoa, like, it's a little, you're both like proud of something and then it's kind of like horrifying at the same time because it's so stressful to write those kinds of documents. And rereading it you know, it was really interesting because so much of what I had been writing about and writing about, you know, the the racism and the anti-Black racism and the kind of collective organizing, I think that's what drew me to the kind of topic and the music which was, you know, it was different people from different backgrounds, mostly working class coming together to kind of stand up to something and I felt when I was writing that I had to kind of defend myself sometimes to you know, just to my advisors and you know, to some of the students etc. Like, why was I doing this and then kind of centered in the, in the pandemic, with the real kind of shift that I think a lot of people have had towards anti-Black racism to acknowledging Canada's ongoing colonial issues. It really felt like, though I had been writing about a historical moment that I was really trying to just understand right now. And like I didn't, I don't think I really understood that quite so much until I looked at it just recently. But when I moved to Toronto, something very strange happened with the Toast Collective, which Am I don't know, if you remember, but there was a series of threats to some kind of safe spaces in Toronto, spaces that had, you know used terminology that described them as safe or political, etc. And the toasts started to receive a lot of online threats. And our name was circulated in a bunch of like subreddits, or chan groups. And it was quite frightening to realize that there was like a darkness that had somehow found us worthy of that kind of attention. When, you know, our activities were so far from sinister and so underfunded. And like, having, you know, I know that we have the people that are involved had been involved in the toast have had impact on the space and impact in the community, but it just feels so small-scale, and then to realize that you're circulating around, you know, the name of a space is being circulated around like same as like Ghost Ship, like the space that had the fire in Oakland, and to see it kind of in the same realm was really frightening. So I think, recognizing that and then kind of, yeah, it's just what kind of drew me to these like alt right groups and thinking through that.
Am Johal 20:38
It's remarkable when people smear you with the cultural Marxist brush, we would hope that Gramsci was so influential in our work, but it's, it's remarkable how the space for thinking has been so confined, and even a few days ago, where you saw the American Military General, defending his reading of Lenin and Mao, when he's not a communist or leftist by any stretch of the imagination that though Trump may not be in office, Trumpism still exists and the outer flows of that movement that's at the state level certainly comes across the borders. It doesn't stop.
Andrea Creamer 21:18
It doesn't stop. No, no, and I think because it's rhetoric, because it's, it's become so mainstream, so part of a colloquialism for a large part of America. It has condoned, condoned thought and condoned behaviors. And, you know, I think that's why they're still, you know, I think that still may be why there's shock and awe, like, when we're seeing the news, even recently, like with the Indigenous grave sites, you know, like it's, it's, it's kind of hidden in that.
Am Johal 21:48
I'm wondering if you can speak to how you're thinking about your art practice now.
Andrea Creamer 21:54
Yeah, I have a, maybe a bit of a distant relationship to making work right now. I do have a project that I'm very keen on, on starting but the pandemic has really kind of set that back. And I think because I'm, I'm very much not material maker, it was the using the the time, the so-called time that I possibly would have had during the pandemic, to kind of work on a material kind of way of thinking through this, it just wasn't what I was gravitating towards. It's... I'm hoping to have access to a large scale site. And you know, Toronto has been very shut down. So the rules of accessing the site have hit already, kind of had a lot of regulation, regulatory kind of protocols, that have now become even more challenging to maneuver. And, and then also, I haven't had access to the Toronto archives. There's some of this stuff online. But if I couldn't find... I was kind of hoping to find actual physical documents. So I'm a little bit on hold, but things actually are starting to open up more this week and I have been finding myself thinking a little bit more about the project and yeah, I think I just maybe need to write a grant and then try to get into the space but I I mean, I think I've been my, my most recent work was still political and kind of dealing with food insecurity in an indirect kind of way. And I, I think that's definitely where the project that I'm interested in working on is kind of leading. And, and kind of systems of distribution and exchange. Yeah, I don't know, I, it's hard to make work in the pandemic, I think for some people, like for a lot of people. And, and I think what I found myself doing, instead of thinking about making work, I did the like, how do I help people. So I've spent a lot of time instead, maybe, when I could have been like, reading a book, or thinking about making work or making work, I've instead been making like phone calls to my friends and neighbours and making sure that they're okay, and then trying to set them up with resources or doing like, food drives, or, you know, clothing drives for people living in tents outside. So it's just like, I kind of use the time to not think about myself or not think about things for me because I, I had a job and I and I had a home. So I was trying to... I just kind of thought outside.
Am Johal 24:18
Yeah. It's been such an intense, tumultuous time, it's really hard to plan. And even though there's this feeling of time being present, what is productivity is really called into question because I think a lot of it's just getting by and surviving day-to-day. I know that you work at the Toronto International Film Festival, but now you're working in Burnaby in a healthcare context, so I'm wondering if you can speak to that a little bit and how your arts background has helped with and community organizing background helps with the work that you're doing now?
Andrea Creamer 24:52
Yeah, yeah, I had a real special moment to get to work at TIFF and it was only about six months, but I was working in community initiatives and mental health outreach, and there became very much attached to a group of folks that I still meet with and it's around the idea of social prescribing. The idea that wellness and, and community relationships could be recommended by a primary health care provider or could or could be prescribed by a primary health care provider. And and so from from that group, and then you know, that I had the next I had the kind of natural thing that happened to a lot of people which was I was laid off from the pandemic, just due to a lack of funds from the organization and then quickly kind of bounced into this job with Burnaby Primary Care Networks very much with the kind of idea of thinking through social prescription, but also, you know, the years of working on events and arts programming, and just community programming and accessible education. So Burnaby Primary Care networks is a is a tripartite relationship with the Fraser Health Authority, the Burnaby Division of Family Practice, which is a membership of primary care physicians, family practices, and walk-in clinic physicians in Burnaby, in partnership with the City of Burnaby, and so it's a three part relationship. Most primary care networks across the province currently are not operating with the, with a community in a three part relationship. They're most often a relationship with the physicians and the Health Authority. So we're working in this really unique way. The city's relationship is the Burnaby Interagency Council, which involves the council made up of all the kind of social service agencies in Burnaby. So these are settlement organizations, the neighbourhood houses, etc, the places, you know, where people go and get different kinds of social services. So I started in the summer last year, and they had already kind of for a number of months. The primary care networks in Burnaby is a relatively new relationship in the last couple of years, last year and a bit and the pandemic offered them a kind of moment to seize on this tripartite relationship. And so two weeks after the kind of initial, mid-March shutdown, that everyone, lockdown that everyone was experiencing, nine working groups had formed in the city of Burnaby. And I quickly learned that there's Burnaby, being a smaller city, already had some, you know, history and had some different kinds of interagency tables and good relationships, but they hadn't been meeting in this kind of way, and maybe with this level of frequency. So we were meeting weekly, a lot of the working groups were meeting weekly around issues of food security, youth and teens, homelessness, social isolation. We've been meeting around technology, financial security, etc. So kind of supporting vulnerable folks around access and social supports. These are working groups that do have Fraser health staff, they have city, social, social programmers, and they have the agencies represented on them, and the neighbourhood house, Parks and Rec, etc. There's even some staff from different ministries in attendance. And so we gather and kind of each, you know, have roundtable discussions, facilitated discussions, working sessions on different issues. And I have to say that I'm working as the community engagement coordinator and I'm in trying to implement a lot of their ideas and kind of, you know, help with some of the connections between different organizations or an organization and an idea and build the relationship also, that you know, not only is a healthy community supported by access to family physicians, or you know, different primary care services or allied health services, but that it's through the relationships of the, the social service agencies as well. These are, these are people that have touch points with so many different people in Burnaby, and they work with the clients or they, you know, see them in the, in the parks and rec place, etc. And it's really trying to find a way that we are working together to create a healthier and connected place. It's quite exciting it's maybe it's I don't know, if I'm making it sound exciting, but you know, I, for years working in Vancouver, and then you know, knowing some really cool and very smart, accomplished folks, and thinking like Shaun Dacey, like going and working in like peripheral kinds of spaces, and then getting to see the kind of amazing and really authentic and energizing kind of programming that happens and the inclusion of the community in those kinds of spaces. I'm not necessarily directly doing arts programming right now, though, I've had the opportunity to do some kind of artistic things in the community space. But I am very excited by the kind of genuine relationships and of working together. It feels really exciting. And it's definitely... I lived in Burnaby for one year, when I was in my mid 20s. And I did not find it as exciting as I do right now. It kind of seems like a really happening place that has a lot of really like dedicated activists and creators and, you know, community organizers that, you know, do some really amazing things. And you know, I think the primary care networks being there, the PCN is just leveraging and bringing some new things into the space but leveraging what was already there. And yeah.
Am Johal 30:51
How do you, now that you're interacting with a healthcare organization, how do you see arts and culture fitting into healthcare?
Andrea Creamer 31:01
Well, definitely, just even that kind of idea of social prescription that I was talking about, which I think is maybe spoken about a little bit differently in BC than it is in Ontario. In BC, I see it a lot around. And we and we are working on some programs, the PCN is working on some programs around like seniors, health, frailty, mobility, and kind of getting connected to certain programs around that. In Ontario, I was really thinking about it as like an accessibility, a lot actually similar lens to the idea of cultural accessibility, Am, which is definitely something I think we thought a lot about in the in Woodward's is, you know, how to how do different different groups of people and how does the community outside the door of Woodward's feel included in this space? So I don't know. I think I think that there's like different opportunities for community-based practices to be integrated, I think that you know, things like Super Cool Tuesdays made me realize that, like, we're, you know, we're we can be healthier and build relationships and connections through things that we maybe didn't think were for us. And so, I'm excited. I'm excited, I'm looking forward to some of the the art spaces in Burnaby to kind of open, be more open so that maybe we can build some stronger relationships with some of those spaces, they're very much like, I know that they receive some of our communications, I know that they're aware of some of the things that we do, et cetera. But yeah, I'm looking forward to a little bit of, I don't know, if it's post-pandemic, but just, you know, the near future, to include some of those kind of artistic gestures more in those kinds of spaces. And, obviously, I think, the social determinants of health. You know, I think a lot of what I definitely learned in my work from working in the Downtown Eastside was, a lot of folks are just, you know, trying to survive. But basic survival only gets you so far. And I think having, building a connection to art, builds connection to place into people. And you know, I'm even just thinking, I saw that there's like, some new graffiti stuff that like Sarah Blyth, and some of the folks in the neighbourhood are working on. And it's like, so energized in social media right now. And I think it's because it really creates a sense of place and and, and gives you ownership in a space, right?
Am Johal 33:30
Want to think about all the kind of interdisciplinary set of practices you're involved with, from the time you were a student to doing graduate work, to now, you have a kind of entanglement between the static social, political practices and wondering what you think about that entanglement in your work. Now, not to ask too much of a kind of graduate studenty question, but it's obviously something you've worked into, in the different sets of ways that you work.
Andrea Creamer 34:05
Yeah, I mean, you know, I've been asked some pointed questions before, even when I was in my master's, like, why am I not studying a Master's of Social Work? Which maybe to some people seemed like a very obvious place for me to land? And the question was so surprising to myself that I, I, I did answer it. And I think I had a good answer. But, you know, I'm not a social worker, and I didn't want to be a social worker. I'm just very much energized by a socialness that we exist in. I definitely think that the interdisciplinary nature of the work that I make, is very much reflective of also how I work or labour as a person, you know, I still garden. I still work part-time in supportive housing with folks. Like, I feel like I'm the kind of person that needs many different spaces to feel nourished in. And some of that is like, I maybe take on too many things or a lot of things. But I think also I realized that I require a complexity of things from like being sporty and active to like working in a garden to, you know, working with folks that may be vulnerable or, you know, street-involved to getting to do some programming or event event based things and they all just kind of for me, like feed into a cycle of understanding, like, and maybe trying to situate myself like wherever I am.
Am Johal 35:32
Andrea, thank you so much for joining us on Below the Radar. We miss you every day in Vancouver. I know you're having a great time in Toronto. So thank you so much.
Andrea Creamer 35:43
Thank you.
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Kathy Feng 36:27
Below the Radar is a knowledge democracy podcast created by SFU’s Vancity Office of Community Engagement. Thanks for listening to our conversation with Andrea Creamer. You can find links to her projects and other resources in the show notes.
And if you liked this episode and like the show, we’d be so grateful if you were to take the time to give us a review on Apple Podcasts! Thanks again to our listeners, old and new, for tuning in. See you next week on Below the Radar!
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