Below the Radar Transcript
Episode 228: See How We Run! Backstage Spaces — with Alen Dominguez and Caitlin Jones
Speakers: Samantha Walters, Julia Aoki, Kathy Feng, Caitlin Jones, Alen Dominguez
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Samantha Walters 0:07
Hello listeners, welcome to See How We Run! Conversations with arts and cultural workers. This is a special Below the Radar series hosted by…
Julia Aoki 0:17
Julia Aoki.
Kathy Feng 0:18
Kathy Feng.
Samantha Walters 0:19
And Samantha Walters. See How We Run! is a mini series looking at local arts collectives and organizations, highlighting conversations about creation, space making, accessibility and self determination within the framework of Vancouver's cityscape. These episodes are recorded on the unceded territories of the Musqueam Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh nations.
On this episode of See How We Run! we’re joined by Neworld Theatre’s managing director Alen Dominguez and consultant Caitlin Jones where we talk about Progress Lab 1422’s Backstage Spaces report. Progress Lab is a building in East Van that is a dedicated performance creation space and home to a collective of renowned theatre and dance companies, who collaboratively run the space with their nonprofit tenants’ board C-Space. Progress Lab is home to Neworld theatre, Company 605, Electric Company Theatre, the Frank Theatre, Playwrights Theatre Centre, Rumble, rice & beans theatre, Tara Cheyenne Performance, and Theatre Conspiracy. The Backstage Spaces report provides an understanding of the issues performance creation spaces face in terms of affordability, city zoning, and property-tax, that threaten not only the companies tenancies but their creative capacities. This episode is hosted by SFU VOCE program assistant and interdisciplinary performance artist Samantha Walters, alongside SFU VOCE program manager Julia Aoki, who brings in a wealth of knowledge on non-profit arts administration in Vancouver. Enjoy the episode!
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Samantha Walters 1:56
Hello and welcome back to Below the Radar. I am your host for the week, Samantha Walters, and today I am joined by some very special guests. I'm joined by Caitlin Jones and Alen Dominguez.
Caitlin Jones 2:06
Hello.
Alen Dominguez 2:07
Hi, Caitlin. Hi, Sam, nice to see you.
Samantha Walters 2:10
Yeah so today we're going to be talking a little bit about Progress Lab, and its recent Backstage Spaces report. But before we start that, I'm just going to ask everyone, if you want to introduce yourselves a little bit, Caitlin, if you want to start?
Caitlin Jones 2:23
Sure. My name is Caitlin Jones. I'm a curator and I guess cultural worker currently doing some consulting and advising with artist-run centres and other nonprofits around issues of space, affordable space, how to find it, how to preserve it, how to make new ones. So it’s in that capacity that C-Space reached out to me to work with them on the Backstage Spaces report.
Alen Dominguez 2:49
My bio is not as impressive. I am Alan Dominguez and I am the managing director of Neworld Theatre, which is one of the original resident companies of Progress Lab. And through my work with Neworld, I was somewhat, somehow elected as the chair of the board for C-Space, which is the society that runs Progress Lab.
Samantha Walters 3:12
And yeah, just to lay the groundwork a little bit. Alen, did you want to talk about like, what is Progress Lab for someone who may have never heard or experienced anything there before? And how does it work?
Alen Dominguez 3:23
Totally. I think at its core, Progress Lab is a space for creation of artistic work. That is, at its core, kind of what it does. But connected to that there's a lot of kind of community components, and an organisational component and how it runs, relationship with artists, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But at its core, it's just a creation space, different rooms for people to make stuff.
Samantha Walters 3:53
And C-Space is the board that runs it?
Alen Dominguez 3:57
That's right. So C-Space was a society that was created back in 2012. To operate the space, as the board then was exploring other options of kind of growing Progress Lab or looking at different spaces. They made the decision that it was best to have a different entity take care of the running of the space. And so that's how it continues to operate today.
Samantha Walters 4:19
From my understanding a lot of C-Space members are folks who work in the building as well.
Alen Dominguez 4:24
That's right. So the board, who is kind of the decision making entity, is comprised by a member of each of the resident companies. So right now we have nine resident companies. So there's nine votes, nine seats on the board.
Samantha Walters 4:40
Cool. Yeah. And so the Backstage Spaces report just came out earlier this year. How did that come to be like, Caitlin, how were you approached initially for writing that report?
Caitlin Jones 4:50
Well, a member of the C-Space board, Heidi Taylor, reached out to me as C-Space had gotten a grant from the Canada Council to explore possible better ways to managing the space because as we know, the cost of operating spaces sort of far outpaces our ability to pay for these types of spaces. So they were interested in collectively assessing what they were doing, what they might do in the future, and sort of what policy changes they could advocate for, different options that might be available to run the space more sustainably. I had previously been the executive director of BCA, which was formerly BC Artscape. And so had done a lot of work around how you can actually operate affordable space for artists. And so they had gotten my name from, I guess, that stream. And I was very happy to do that. Because as Alen says, you know, Progress Lab is a space to produce and create art, but it has a particular focus on performance based work. And that provides an even additional challenge, because we need much larger spaces. We have to share those spaces across, you know, time. So I was really excited to kind of work in that. The sort of field of performing arts and the specific needs related to that.
Samantha Walters 6:27
Yeah, that's a, that's a good segue, actually. I'm a performance maker myself as well, so I understand the need for space. But I think it's often not considered by the general public that these sorts of backstage spaces are so key to creation. I wonder how do you guys consider that... just need for space that is so tangible for creation?
Alen Dominguez 6:44
I mean, I think it's in the name right? It's the backstage space and without a backstage or creation space that is not public, you wouldn't have any public work. You wouldn't be able to have any kind of outreach or community engagement because it needs to happen somewhere. And I think one of the issues that I've identified is that people just don't think about that, right? Because you only are exposed to kind of the last version of the work, which is when it's ready to be presented or shared, but you don't get to see the months or years of work that go into creating anything.
Samantha Walters 7:18
Yeah, that's, that's very real. And Progress Lab has a few different rehearsal spaces, doesn't it?
Alen Dominguez 7:23
Yeah, we have a main studio, which is the one that is kind of fully equipped for performance, theatre or dance, we have a full grid, we have sprung floor, we have curtains, we have kind of like, new digital equipment that we acquired during peak COVID. And we have a new garage room that is more suited for kind of one person rehearsals or large meetings, you can do a bit of movement around. But it's been a real blessing to have just a separate space, because before it operated as a woodshop to build the sets for the studio or for other productions. So in 20... I think it was late 2019, it was converted into a new rehearsal space. And it is, I cannot tell you, it's in such demand, it is always being utilised.
Samantha Walters 8:16
Yeah, because nine companies for these spaces plus maybe external folks as well.
Alen Dominguez 8:22
Yeah, it is, it is now nine, it was eight a few months ago. And in 2018, it was four. So it just continues to grow.
Samantha Walters 8:31
And the expansion of the amount of companies in that building was out of necessity.
Caitlin Jones 8:37
Well, you might have the exact dates there in the report, but I believe it was in 2018, or 2019.
Alen Dominguez 8:45
We got the notice in 2018, that the 2019 rent...
Caitlin Jones 8:48
There you go, 2018 and 2019. C-Space was given a massive rent increase from its landlord, which required that— I mean, I think maybe it's time to back up just a little bit, just to talk about why this is so hard. And like I said, there is— we talked about it in the report, there's the amount it costs to operate a space. And then it's a tenants ability to pay for that space. And the amount it costs to operate a space just keeps going up and up and up. And our ability to pay, our artistic community's ability to pay stays desperately static. And so there's this massive gap that exists between those two things, and it has to get filled in some way. So in 2019, C-Space had to fill that gap by doubling the amount of tenants in their space so that they were able to generate more income, which it did. But then what you mean is that then, so you have the revenue to match your expenses. But now you've lost half of your time in the studio space, which is the reason that you're in that space to begin with. So it's, it's a sort of strange math and that we've sort of reached the edge of it now, you can't just keep adding more companies. Otherwise, the companies now have eight weeks in the large studio, add more, you're gonna end up with six, and then all of a sudden, why are you paying to be there anyway. And we see the same with visual arts spaces too, where because price per square foot for operating continues to go up and up and up. But nobody's operating budgets is going up and up and up. So you're carving these tiny, it just, you're reducing the footprint of every artist studio. So artists studios are now 100 square feet, which you know, is fine. But what happens to the art that you're able to produce when you've gone from a 600 square foot studio. And now you're operating out of 100 square foot studio. The type of work that you're going to create in a space like that is very, very different, you know, so this kind of real estate, the squeezing, is not only like creating a lot of stress and stopping people from doing their creative work altogether, but it's actually radically changing the kind of work that's being produced in the city.
Samantha Walters 11:27
Yeah, I think that's a really good point because there's this sort of, I don't know quite the word but like, a spiritual element to it where like there's the crunch of real estate, and it limits in a way, the artistic imagination, through space and through time.
Alen Dominguez 11:47
Yeah, I think I would say that, you know, it's also in the report how C-Space operates, which I think is one of the crown jewels of the society, but collaboration will only get us this far. And I think we're at a point where we just need to figure something else. Because we're at a, at our limit.
Samantha Walters 12:08
Yeah, for sure. And so in the report, it sort of talks about the idea of a nonprofit cultural space provider. And this seems like a very specific term that I was just learning about. But it also seems really key to understanding, like the position that so many other arts nonprofits are in as well.
Caitlin Jones 12:24
So I think I made up that word, that term, but it is a there is a type of organization that has emerged in the last 10 years, maybe if you go back 15 or 20 years in the case of Artscape, Toronto, which, that's a whole other conversation that well, it's definitely relevant here, obviously. But what you have is an organization and three— we're in a, we're in a space like that, right now. 312 Main, which is also a nonprofit cultural space operator. So it's a parent organization, like C-Space, like 312 Main, like 221A in Vancouver, like Artscape in Toronto, there's a number of other examples... That tries to take space out of the market, and remove the profit incentive from renting space to cultural organizations and nonprofits by either owning a building, paying a low lease rate, having a deal with the City of Vancouver or another entity, and then renting out space at below market levels and offering organizations security of tenancy, regularly and well communicated rental increases, a variety of leases from short term to long term leases, like it's a, it's an entity that's set up to support the cultural organizations or the nonprofit organizations that work within it. So this is a relative, I don't know, actually, I don't know, I don't want to say it's new, because it's possibly not new, people have been kind of co-locating like this for a long time. But the emergence in need of these kinds of umbrella organizations has really sprung up. And in the case of C-Space, I think it's very interesting that they chose this nonprofit, as opposed to just a collective, or a sort of joint operating agreement between the different organizations to collectively manage the space, because if you have this other umbrella organization, that's its own nonprofit, it has its specific mandate, only to operate the space, and then to be able to get grants and generate revenues and sort of operate. That's its only thing, it's not like Alen as Neworld, trying to manage a space off the side of his desk. Theoretically, he does that anyway, because of the way that C-Space is structured. But it allows a certain level of separation between the creative work that Neworld does and the sort of administrative space management work that Neworld has to do. But other organizations in this city like BCA, and 221A they're— while there is programming involved in their organizations, their mandate is really just cultural space operations, provision and preservation, hopefully.
Samantha Walters 15:21
And Julia, you have direct experience with like 221A, and other organizations really involved with space. We've had these conversations. The two of us if you want to...
Julia Aoki 15:31
Yeah, I feel kind of temporarily removed a little bit from it now. But it became a very pressing issue for me when I stepped into the role of general manager of Vivo Media Art Centre a number of years ago, that was in 2016, or 2017. And Vivo Media Arts Centre's a kind of a legacy artist-run centre in the city, it's I don't know how many decades old this point, it's probably...
Caitlin Jones 15:54
Almost 50.
Julia Aoki 15:55
Almost 50. Yeah. So it came about in the 70s. Obviously, a very, very different context, with the focus on media arts, which is, you know, very onerous in terms of space when you're, you know, acquiring equipment, preserving equipment, creating production space. And it was never easy for the organization, I would say, but it was always, I think, it seemed more possible. They were constantly, or not constantly, but regularly moving spaces. Started nearby here on Powell Street, in Yaletown and some other places where they could convert kind of previously light industrial spaces. Were on Main Street for quite a long time. And this is before my time but through, you know, a number of events were not able to or couldn't or didn't renew their lease in the Main Street space. And actually, with the support of the City of Vancouver, were able to relocate closer to Boundary in a fairly large space. But when I came on, that did not seem like it was potentially another five years, five years goes very quickly, something else would need to happen. And they had received through a community amenity contribution, a grant that was given both to Vivo and to C-Space in a kind of arranged marriage. And I shouldn't speak about that at too much length, because I know there would be gaps or misrepresentations. But yeah, it was this very strange situation where you know, you could see how someone from the outside would think these are two organizations that do make sense, right? Like they both need a fair amount of space and... But exactly what you're talking about where the sort of operating model for each was dependent on access to that space and dividing it would become very, very hard to maintain. And yeah, it was, it was a very strange situation, I don't know if we want to get into the kind of nuts and bolts of these types of contributions. But it to me was sort of, like getting into a situation where it was like seed money, it was still very much in the kind of, there's a sort of economic model that we're meant to explore, and leverage that money into something greater when, you know, I came from community arts. That was my interest. I wanted to work in a space that was interested in accessibility to production space. And, and I think that some people really can rise to the occasion, Caitlin, I'm thoroughly impressed by your ability to be a curator and think in that way, but also to be able to do this work. But I was not prepared for that, you know, and, yeah, it was, it was hugely challenging. And ultimately, I actually don't fully know what happened after I left, but clearly a collaboration has not come to fruition.
Alen Dominguez 18:41
Yes, that's correct. I am also very impressed with Caitlin, because it's a steep learning curve, you know, learning about tax assessments and property stuff, you know, I feel a little bit more well versed now, after a year of being kind of really in it, but I had no idea. You know, I graduated from UBC in 2012. So like, over the past 10 years, I've been kind of starting my career, and I am just lucky enough that I landed in this role. And, but I don't know anything about, you know, other than we value the art that we're making, we know, that's how, that's what we know how to do. And so for a variety of reasons, we find ourselves in a situation where we just kind of have to figure it out.
Caitlin Jones 19:21
I mean, I'm not that impressive.
Julia Aoki 19:31
Oh, come on.
Caitlin Jones 19:32
And I think it's, I think it's, it's like math, it's like I have a child right now who's like freaked out about math, it's not actually that hard. It's just that it's made to seem really difficult to us. There is a lot of complexity, and there's a lot of things to know about it. But conceptually, real estate is not difficult for us to understand. And I think that is part of why we've gotten into the situation where we've gotten into. And I think our funders also have a situation where they think that we as artists, or culture workers can't possibly understand how to buy a piece of property and manage it. Well, of course, we do, like anybody can do that. It's not— so we sort of self— I think we, as a community kind of shoot ourselves in the foot by saying that it's complicated. Well, and yes, it is. But also everybody's very smart and capable of figuring it out. And in most cases, I feel so much more confident in the ability of a nonprofit to own and manage their own space than I do in a third party landlord to do that. So I sort of am like, I think we can all like, consciously try to switch that narrative. And maybe we should make a CliffsNotes of that report. So it's like, can be handed out to any arts org that has the ability to kind of... Has the opportunity to buy a space or manage their own space.
Julia Aoki 21:11
Yeah, I actually, I will take this opportunity to reframe what I said, because I think that's true is that what happened was I entered into a situation where the model under which that organization had operated for very long time, and the expectations for an organization like that just did not fit with the expectations of how that money would be used or how additional funding would be raised. And so like, we come from organizations with legacies of, you know, maybe not sufficient support but regular support from funders that could match the operating needs of an organization with an understanding of market failure, that these are not organizations that are meant to thrive in a market model that, you know, we understand that there's an inherent value that doesn't need to be rendered through notions of like profitability, that the value is something else. And then yeah, I came into a situation where I was trying to fit, you know, a square peg into a round hole. I think.
Caitlin Jones 22:09
You know, one of the things that I do think is really important in this conversation around this, to go back to the idea of a nonprofit cultural space operator, whatever we call that entity, is that I think, and just for the listeners, Toronto Artscape, on whom many organizations have been modelled over the years, just went into receivership in Toronto, putting all 15 of their properties at great risk. And I think what that tells us, I mean, I think it tells us many things. But one of the things that that tells us is this kind of like market-light version of what we're doing, which is that if we just rent, we follow the same model, but the sort of commercial real estate market, for-profit commercial real estate market sits at the top. And then a middleman just takes slightly less profit from the people it's subleasing to. That's not a sustainable model, necessarily, because the market that, if people could see I'm making a lot of hand gestures here, but if that commercial entity that sits at the top, it just gets to continue to reap the benefits that it needs to reap. It's— we're going to run out of runway sooner or later. Again, to go back to the fact that if everybody's operating grants and revenues generated as an independent artist don't rise at the same rate.
Samantha Walters 23:39
I think one of the things that was kind of shocking to me in reading the report was the idea of the triple net lease. And I was just like, how is that allowed?
Caitlin Jones 23:50
It is a crazy, crazy thing. And I sometimes, I'm the same like even as I know about it, I'm, I just think how is this possible? Like, how is this possible? So the triple net lease is where... For commercial spaces, where a tenant is charged a base rate, a base per square foot rate, then they are charged on top of that operating fee. So that's your utilities and everything. And then there's another fee, that's a kind of maintenance side. So it's three, you're sort of paying rent in three ways. Now, that in itself is not an issue, theoretically, because you're, you could also just pay a single lease, and it would just be all, if you pay it all as a lump sum, you're still paying the same amount. The issue with the triple net lease in Vancouver, and which is a big piece of the C-Space report, is the way that property taxes are allocated on commercial property. So property taxes get passed down through the triple net lease from the landowner to the tenant, which is kind of a crazy thing. I think that should be taken out of triple net leases altogether. If you own a property and you're making a profit on your property, you shouldn't be handing your taxes down to your tenants. But to make matters worse, in BC, we have something called highest and best use, which means that your property is not taxed on what its current valuation and current use is. But what its future development potential is. So in the case of C-Space, or I guess, Progress Lab is the building itself. It's a one and a half story, two story building, sitting on Williams Street, but it's tax rate is for I think, a six storey building, which is what is the allowable density on that lot. So in that instance, the landlord is transferring the tax it pays on the landlord's future profit on that building and handing that down on to a tenant.
So that's not just for nonprofits, that's for any, any tenant in a thing. So you have all these single storey spaces all up, let's say Clark drive, for example, those have auto repair shops, there's some other studios, I think Sunset Terrace is along there. There's a bunch of things. All of those buildings are being taxed on the six storey redevelopment potential. So the landlord will get to sell that building. But for the last 10 years has not been paying any tax on that redevelopment potential. So it's a very bizarre thing. And I should mention that the city is well aware of the challenge that this presents and they've been working to try to come up with ways to ameliorate the situation. One is through what they call a split tax assessment, which we don't necessarily need to get into the specifics of it, but in which case that the tenant would only pay the tax rate for the space within which it operates. But it's not proposing that the develop— or that the property owner pays the rest of that tax, it's proposed that the city will offset that tax by raising taxes everywhere else. So it's... there's just a very strange unwillingness to tax commercial property owners in a way that is commensurate with the profit that they'll make when they sell their properties.
Alen Dominguez 27:37
If I can just add to that is, you know, I guess a shout out to the city because even though we've had a lot of challenges, it's probably the entity that seems most receptive to, at least in my experience—
Julia Aoki 27:51
Cultural services is really—
Alen Dominguez 27:52
Cultural services. And you know, they're very aware and they've been really receptive. And... but arts and culture is only one part of the huge portfolio the city manages. So we're in conversations right now with them about the failed, to us, pilot tax relief project of this, earlier this year in 2020.
Caitlin Jones 28:13
Earlier this year, yeah.
Alen Dominguez 28:14
So you know, if we come back to do another episode next year, who knows, maybe, things might have changed a little bit, but it won't be a major relief, it'll be like maybe a little bit.
Samantha Walters 28:23
Could you expand on the program from earlier this year?
Alen Dominguez 28:27
Ooh okay. So what I understand is that because the city is aware of these issues, they're trying to— they offered a pilot project earlier this year to some buildings, lots, to diminish the amount of property tax that they would pay. There's a... I remember looking at the presentation, that's kinda like all these math equations and how they landed at this like small percentage discount. But it is still based on your BC assessment for your land use. So for the Progress Lab building, which is coded as a warehouse, was not eligible for the tax relief. And we were, of course, not the only organization, plenty of organizations that are based out in East Van were also not eligible, because of the nature of the work that we do is that we often find ourselves in these different types of buildings that are not built for arts, they're built as warehouses. I was reading through my notes today and Progress Lab was a garment factory. So of course, it's not going to be for arts.
Samantha Walters 29:32
Yeah. And— which is so unfortunate, given that so much art production, like, exists in these fringe spaces and in like, any place that artists can find, really.
Caitlin Jones 29:42
I think we could go back to this question of like complexity, you know, that this is so hard to understand. And, and it— Okay, so it is a little bit hard to understand. Because, you know, this, this whole question, we talk about affordability, affordability, affordability, and affordability is definitely a huge piece, but this other piece, so the tax piece plays into affordability. But the tax piece also points out the bizarre maze of zoning within the City of Vancouver. So the City of Vancouver only allows cultural use in specific areas. Artistic production is broken into two categories, Class A and Class B. One is for doing stuff on your computer or painting with non toxic chemicals, sculpture with non toxic chemicals. And another one is, you know, your woodshop, your photography studio, anything that requires welding or metalwork. So these things are separated out. Some areas allow that Class A, some areas allow Class A and B. Theatre rehearsal and production is not even in either of those classes. It's in another class that's related, that is a conditional use. And so it's— that part is also really complicated. And then add to that City of Vancouver zoning doesn't map onto the provincial BC assessment classification system. So it is just another layer. And that's why we have so many times when you hear about something got shut down or closed, it's... The Western Front had this situation when I first started at Western Front, and this kind of goes way back to why I'm so interested in this. The Western Front had been operating at that point for 35 or 38 years. And then someone went to go get a business licence from the City of Vancouver. And they were like, wait, what do you do in that building? And the Western Front got given a cease and desist letter because of its activities... This, you know, storied legacy organization was not allowed to be doing the work that it did in the zoning that it was in. So we had to go through like a full rezoning process with the city in order to be able to keep our doors open. And other organizations who don't have that history, didn't have the resources available and the like, potential sort of PR disaster if the city was to shut down The Western Front, they have not been so lucky. It does bear mentioning that during that process, with The Western Front, I worked really closely with city staff and shout out again to city staff, cultural services, and in particular, the like spaces section of the cultural services. We created a zone, like a zoning category for arts and culture. And within that zoning category, we included everything we could possibly think of that you would want in an arts and culture studio. So that's, you know, noxious fumes use, assembly, some retail, you know, performance and rehearsal. We tried to just like encapsulate all of it within this typology, so that that typology could be replicated around the city. Hasn't been done yet, but it sort of still sits there. And there's an, there's a reference to that in the report as well.
Samantha Walters 33:11
Yeah, that's so interesting that like, I feel like especially so much performance now is so interdisciplinary, that it's so at odds with like, trying to even define what you're doing or what materials you might even need for a process before you've started are sometimes difficult questions. Yeah. So earlier, you mentioned the potential CliffsNotes of the reports. And I'm wondering if we could get into what are the main recommendations from the report?
Alen Dominguez 33:37
Why does it feel like you wrote this 20 years ago?
Caitlin Jones 33:39
I know!
Alen Dominguez 33:42
Oh, there was also an addendum right, which we just kind of talked about the tax update, but I'll let you go.
Caitlin Jones 33:47
Okay, so we talked about the property tax reform. So coming up with a way to sort of end the passing on of property taxes. Just so everybody knows, I think the last property tax bill that went to C-Space was like $25,000, or something like that. So that's on top of the rent that you're already paying. So that's like an obviously, not an insignificant amount that we're talking about. Another big one is the, what we would call operating funds for space operators. And that kind of goes back to this idea of like, what is a cultural space operator. But that is one way that we could close this gap between the cost of operating a space and the ability for cultural tenants to pay for it. So that is to say that government can step in and say, if we're not going to solve for the larger market issue, we can at least make sure that we help close that gap. As it is, the gap is closed by free labour, doing like consulting work off the side of your desk, like trying to generate revenues in strange ways when it's totally aside from what your mandate as an organization is. And again, shout out to the City of Vancouver and the cultural spaces team, they developed, I think, about four years ago, City of Vancouver has a very small cultural space operators fund that organizations who sort of find themselves in this role can apply to up to $50,000 a year from the City of Vancouver. And for some organizations, C-Space included, it's made a huge difference. And in the report, we also note that the federal government, Canadian Heritage, did a big report on its funding that it's been given to sort of the capital projects, and they did a big round table. And this was one of the biggest recommendations that came out of it, which is, it's amazing that you're giving us money to create these spaces, but we actually need help to make sure that they continue to be sustainable. And another interesting thing, just to add to that, that came out of COVID. And this was one I just learned. I learned this from C-Space is when revenue was being funnelled into these organizations during COVID, sort of extra operating funds came from all levels of government. Well, I guess the feds and the province really gave a lot of COVID support, which was amazing. It was like, all of a sudden, these organizations could breathe for a second. They were like, oh my gosh, and look at what happens when we get an extra $30,000 a year, it like allows us to hire the person that we need to help do this work. It allows, you know, it just opened up a lot of possibilities. So it's not a huge investment because there's not a lot of these kinds of organizations, but it's a hugely impactful investment.
Alen Dominguez 36:40
The grants came with things that the 30k makes a huge difference for an organization our size, right? Because everyone else is working, like without the money, everyone on the board is working one and a half jobs, like just kind of coming up with this stuff on the side of our desks, which is obviously not sustainable.
Caitlin Jones 36:57
Okay, I'm gonna go on to the next one because I feel like I'm good at talking about this one. This is the one I— No but we've already talked about this. So we can just bring it back. So the other one is something that I, that I sort of called ‘focus on cash bonusing’. So the city has a number of tools that it uses, ways that it leverages massive developments in the City of Vancouver to pay for public goods. And as complicated as a zoning question, and as to what they're called, there's density bonuses, commercial linkage fees, community amenity contributions, and they're all applied in different ways to different types of developments. Developers hate them, not because they don't want to give money. But because it's really complicated for them. It's always done on like a case by case basis. It's this long negotiation. But there is something attached to residential development that they use often, called a community amenity contribution. And this goes to support parks, to support child care spaces, to support affordable housing, to support arts and culture usually. And there's two types. One is that they call it an in kind amenity. And that's when a building has the amenity space built into it. So the developer just builds the space, be it a daycare or cultural space, the city owns that space, and then they lease it out to an operator to manage that space. The other one is called a cash bonus, cash in lieu. And that's when the developer will just give the equivalent amount in cash to the city and then the city can distribute it based on their priorities. When Julia was talking earlier about this Vivo C-Space thing around the, I think it was called The Independent, I always call it the Rize development. But Rize was the developer and the building itself was called The Independent, which is the massive tower that's across from Kingsgate Mall at Kingsway and Broadway and Main Street, that little corner there. They were required as their community amenity contribution to give, I think $6.5 million to the city. And some of that got funnelled off to affordable housing. And I think about $4.5 million went to preserve arts and culture in the neighbourhood. And one of the reasons that happened was because a lot of the cultural organizations in the neighbourhood: Vivo, Western Front, Grunt gallery, we all got wind of this money. And so we were— advocated really hard at the city level to say like, you need to give us that, you need to give us that money. Already existing organizations that are in this area, because we're gonna get priced out if we don't have the ability to do this. So they, so they did, they listened. And then we were all, there was a transparent process, we were all able to apply for significant amounts of money. So The Western Front got $1.5 million. I think the Grunt Gallery got $400,000, and a few other organizations did, so with that The Western Front was able to buy its own building. The Grunt Gallery already owned its building but had a big mortgage on it. So they were able to pay off their mortgage and invest money in an endowment fund. So they were able to convert that money. And then of course, there was a situation with Vivo and C-Space which was slightly more complicated, but it could have worked, I'm adamant it could have worked.
Alen Dominguez 40:43
In theory...
Caitlin Jones 40:35
I'm furious that it didn't work. What it did was like, it sort of, within that amount of money it moved two assets like into full community hands, you know, and The Western Front has had, I mean what they had was a very special situation in which its landlords were the founding artists of The Western Front who were willing to sell at like a below market rate. But Grunt Gallery I think is one of the most exciting galleries in our community and they're able to do so much because they're not paying this rental, constant rent and they're not paying into this market. They're able to leverage, to use like real estate terms, that investment into like sustainable growth for their organization and same with Western Front, so my new soapbox that I'm on is like no more in kind community amenity contributions for arts and culture. Give us the cash and you know, give the city the cash, C-Space can apply for it, Vivo can apply, anyone can apply for it to buy their own assets and just remove them from the market. There could be all kinds of caveats on that money, that C-Space can't buy that and then sell it off, it would have to stay within a pool of cultural amenities, but it would give each organization its own, a bit more agency and ability to sort of manage itself sustainably. And that is a huge recommendation in the city's own reports, right? Their great report, which is referenced in our report, is ‘Making Space for Arts and Culture’. I think they call it more community assets in community hands or something like that.
Alen Dominguez 42:15
Yes, I echo that, all of that. Yeah, I think I've mentioned this before, but the core value that C-Space operates with, out of necessity, but also out of joy, is collaboration. And through this process, working with Caitlin, we've explored also, other collaborations with organizations that have already been doing similar work around spaces like 221A, Eastside Arts Society, Arts Factory, Left of Main, super close from here as well. And because everyone is working on a different kind of parallel project, we propose that it'd be interesting to kind of come together and maybe formalise that collaboration so that we can have a better and bigger leverage when talking about all these issues.
Samantha Walters 43:02
So how are things looking at Progress Lab right now in sort of the immediate future.
Alen Dominguez 43:08
Things are looking just okay. Since the report came out, we have been talking to the city lots. I won't spoil it, but you know, there's kind of options there with the city, kind of moving forward. Our lease expires next year, and there was, still is a small fear in the back of my mind that it wouldn't be renewed. We have a really very clear communication with our landlord, they've expressed that they do not want to sell, or that is just not interesting to them, they know what the land is worth. So they're kind of hanging on to that because they own, I think, half the block. So I think the immediate future is just okay, assuming that we don't get an 80% increase in rent. And so the negotiation right now that I'm currently on with landlords, is that, if we can keep it as is, we can probably manage it with a new operating model that is kind of internal to C-Space. But one of the things that I was thinking this morning is that we went through a massive crisis with COVID. And so in 2019, when— We all did, of course, right. But in the context of this space, we got this increase in rent in 2019. And then in 2020, we didn't really have access to the space. So this massive shift happened. And then it was unused for so long. And then kind of coming out of that peak COVID, we're kind of trying to figure it out, you know, now we're eight instead of four, we don't have enough space. And now suddenly, it's 2024. And now we have to renew and imagine a new way of operating the space that is more sustainable for everybody. And hopefully, with at least a few of the CliffsNotes that Caitlin prepared in this report moving forward.
Caitlin Jones 44:54
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of those things need to be enacted quickly in order to ensure that that space can continue to go on. But the thing that I was so impressed with C-Space in their way that they manage themselves was a real clarity of values. And a clarity of values, like stated values, but also how those values are enacted within the space itself. So it's not just words that, oh it's equitable space, or oh we're doing XY and Z, it's like they actually, together as a group, negotiate time and work together. Again, they're working on temporal time and actual square footage time and really like compromising with each other, understanding each other's artistic practices to like make this space work. And I think we actually are about to embark on a new project working, I'll be working with them again, on this idea of like, does, without becoming Toronto Artscape, can C-Space scale up in some way or look to collaborate with other organizations to kind of create more space like this, that will, I guess, allow them to operate at scale that might alleviate some of the time pressures without adding too much on the expense side of things. So just kind of modelling out what a few other options might look like.
Alen Dominguez 46:31
Yeah, I'm very excited about that. We received funding through the federal government for that, so shout out to them. But you know, it's just, it's an exploration and we just don't know, we... I'm not starting this project, knowing anything other than, we'll see how it goes. But thank you for saying the values thing, I think it's important to say that it feels when I'm working with the board, it really feels like everyone is listened to. And it is equitable and in a very tangible way, where we consider different operating levels, staff availability, staff capacity. So it is really beautiful to watch in action. I hope that it's an inspiration for other organizations. And there's a real tension between that and, and maybe expanding or changing the way things work right now, because even now, through the Artscape Toronto situation, I recognize that C-Space occupies a very different space in the kind of arts infrastructure, arts ecology in the country, definitely the city than it did in 2008. You know, it was a kind of a cool spot for four theatre companies to hang out and drink beer and kind of like, talk about artmaking at the height of indie theatre culture. That remains alive. But it is a very different conversation. The affordability conversation has changed, our relationship to land has changed. COVID has changed. So it just operates a different space. And I'm very excited to kind of see what the next era of C-Space and Progress Lab is.
Samantha Walters 48:04
Yeah, I mean, I'm always so inspired when I'm in the space, not just by the wonderful art that gets made and shown there, but by the collaboration between companies. Yeah, it's such an important space for performance in the city, which, you know if you're in performance, it's, you know where it is. But yeah, just that idea of collaboration, and like genuine care for just other companies is so special as well. Is there anything else that you'd like to add?
Caitlin Jones 48:34
I mean, I think it's so obvious to say, but it's, it's really incredible how much predatory real estate practices has taken away from us in this city, like, it's sort of impossible to quantify it, but just even you saying, like, it started as four theatre companies with a place to just kind of hang out and screw around and make stuff and do things like, that just doesn't feel possible in the city at all anymore. And, you know, I think we're making huge strides, necessarily important things in terms of making these spaces more accessible. Because those types of spaces were maybe not as accessible to other people, it was a particular group of people who had the wherewithal and the confidence to go out and do that. So I do think that there's been some huge strides maken in terms of like providing access to those spaces, but there's just such a complete and total lack of ability to be spontaneous, and try something out and take a space and, you know, screw around again, I was going to say the F word, but I don't know, as a podcast...
Samantha Walters 49:45
You can say the F word!
Caitlin Jones 49:46
Fuck around and see what happens. Like, you know, so The Western Front, that's how The Western Front came to be. That's how Vivo came to be. That's how all these organizations that we sort of cherish in our city and, and there are other examples of that. But the sort of like, these administrative pressures, so overshadow them, it's not just like it's incredible what people are able to continue producing in the face of this total disregard for freedom and ability to create stuff. It's really inspiring that people are still able to do it. But it shouldn't be so hard for everybody. You know, it's just crazy making, infuriating, and again, we all know it, but it does just warrant repeating. And it's all in the face of real estate speculation.
Alen Dominguez 50:37
Yes, that, also I'm going to also echo that and just to, I'm worried about the direction of the city, in terms of arts and culture, I guess, if I can just say anything is, you know, pay attention to elections and vote for people that prioritize whatever you care for. Of course, what I care for is arts and culture, and other stuff. But that cannot be like said enough, like you have to show up and vote for the people that will prioritize these issues.
Samantha Walters 51:08
Is there anything coming up at Neworld that you wanted to plug?
Alen Dominguez 51:11
Oh, my God, yes, thank you. We are, we're going to be presenting Fat Joke at The Cultch in May, and that is being developed and created at Progress Lab. We are also going to have a night of climate action and hope in May of next year as well. And outside of Neworld, there's lots of other companies, of course, that are creating one night events, sometimes with open door policy where you can just kind of show up and see what's going on. So I guess also an invitation to just come check it out. Because I haven't, I've yet to meet someone who's not impressed by the space, not because we're trying to show off. But because it's so unique. I think a really good way to experience it, is just to come see it and say hi. We love kind of connected to community, it's part of the ethos of the space, right? We want to get to know you and get to know more people.
Caitlin Jones 52:00
I think it is worth saying, spaces like Progress Lab with its, you know, incredible number of tenants, Electric Company, Company 605, Newworld, Theatre Conspiracy, of just to name a few, like, these companies are world renowned, certainly nationally renowned. They tour, they bring like attention to Vancouver's art scene, they do their... you know, so the work that's done at Progress Lab is work that's kind of exported, and it's all over the country, you know, it's like, that's the kind of thing that's so... To go back to this conversation of backstage spaces, it's like these backstage spaces serve our community and our city, but they actually also have like a much larger reach than that as well, or they have a much larger, maybe to use a kind of funder word, the impact of it is huge and exceed— what far, goes far beyond just the city of Vancouver so...
Julia Aoki 53:00
And beyond economic externalities, which I feel like is a logic that is needlessly applied.
Caitlin Jones 53:05
Well and it is applied. And that's why I think we also, thank you for saying that, this idea of like the economics of it, it's like, again, it's very hard to quantify how art makes us feel, or like why it's important, but we all know that it is and the city knows that, everybody knows that is. But that's where we get into this weird math game where then we're kind of forced to justify our existence on economic terms when we can't always do that, nor should we be doing that, so.
Samantha Walters 53:39
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
Caitlin Jones 53:42
Thanks for having me. Us. I love talking about this, I could talk about this all day.
Alen Dominguez 53:48
And we'll continue to—
Caitlin Jones 53:49
And I will continue to
Alen Dominguez 53:50
Thank you. Yeah, thank you for making the space for us. It's very exciting.
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Samantha Walters 53:57
Below the Radar is a knowledge democracy podcast created by SFU’s Vancity Office of Community Engagement. Thanks for listening to our episode on the Backstage Spaces report with Alen Dominguez and Caitlin Jones. Head to the show notes to find out more about the report and some of the other resources and organisations mentioned in the conversation. Tune in next week for the third episode of our See How We Run! mini-series. Don’t forget to subscribe to our show on your podcast listening app of choice, and we’ll catch you next time on Below the Radar.