Below the Radar Transcript
Episode 30: Build Communities Not Prisons — with Teresa MacInnes
Speakers: Melissa Roach, Maria Cecilia Saba, Jamie-Leigh Gonzales, Paige Smith, Teresa MacInnes
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Melissa Roach 0:06
You're listening to Below the Radar, a knowledge mobilization project recorded out of 312 Main. This podcast is produced by SFU's Vancity Office of Community Engagement.
Maria Cecilia Saba 0:17
Below the Radar brings forward ideas to encourage meaningful exchanges across communities.
Jamie-Leigh Gonzales 0:21
Each episode we interview guests on topics ranging from environmental and social justice, arts, culture, community building and urban issues. This podcast is recorded on the unceded territories of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh peoples.
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Paige Smith 0:39
Hello, listeners. I'm Paige Smith with SFU's Vancity Office of Community Engagement. And thank you for joining us on below the radar. On this episode, I had the opportunity to interview documentary filmmaker Teresa MacInnes. Teresa is one of the directors of the documentary film, Conviction, a film which gives a sobering look at the lives of different women inside two Nova Scotia and prisons together. Teresa and I talked about how collaborating with these women in the prisons was an integral part of the film, what it was like to work on the film and the importance of challenging and perceptions of women in prison.
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Paige Smith 1:19
Hi, everyone, welcome to Below the Radar. I'm Paige Smith and I'm here with Teresa.
Teresa MacInnes 1:24
Hi, Paige.
Paige Smith 1:25
Thanks for joining us.
Teresa MacInnes 1:27
Well, it's lovely to be here.
Paige Smith 1:28
Great. So we're here to talk about your feature documentary Conviction. Can you please tell us a little bit about your film, Conviction?
Teresa MacInnes 1:36
Okay, so Conviction is a collaboration with women inside two prisons in Nova Scotia. One was a provincial facility and one was a federal, and the majority of it takes place in the provincial prison and Nance [Ackerman], Ariella [Pahlke] and I collaborated with a group of about 12 women to imagine what they would have needed in their lives to have avoided prison. And so we, you know, we start the whole thing with them singing, we put art supplies, and we did sort of a series of about six days trying to get them to open up and imagine what they would have needed. And so then a few of them naturally gravitated towards us in the film. And we continued, and we followed them. For a couple of years, actually, it was in total a four year process. And then we also had always planned to do this in a federal institution. But it took us two and a half years to get permission to go in there. And we knew that that was going to happen and we hoped, so what we decided to do with the women there is we thought, would it be interesting... because music and artists such a big part of this film, we thought, wouldn't it be interesting if they wrote a song and or wrote about their experience and helped us with the music. So the women at the provincial really helped us imagine with their footage and their art. And the women at the federal helped us with the music. So when you see a lot of the music and the singing and the opening and the closing, they actually, we spent six days with them and they wrote this music for the film. And it's sort of like a Greek chorus of the film, if you will.
Paige Smith 3:19
Yeah, because that's what opens the film, right?
Teresa MacInnes 3:21
Yeah.
Paige Smith 3:21
Yeah, exactly. And just to speak to that, what was the inspiration? You're saying, like you wanted the women to be able to imagine what they would have needed. But was there some more to the idea to give them more like direct power in the making of the film? They almost feel like collaborators in that way.
Teresa MacInnes 3:40
Absolutely. They are collaborators, and each one of them we wanted, you know, it's really hard to I mean, obviously, we didn't work with all 13 of them that we worked with, but again, some of them gravitated, and so they became very much agents of their own story. So they shot footage, we showed them sections of the film. They had to say in how they were portrayed, what they wanted to say about themselves, what they didn't want. And so yes, they very much, we see them as collaborators in that respect, not so much of the overall film, but of their sections.
Paige Smith 4:17
That's amazing. Can you speak more to what it was like to collaborate with your co-directors? Why were there three of you and what was it like to also be directing and producing?
Teresa MacInnes 4:28
Well, it's interesting because we all started together, and we tried to separate roles out. But because we had sort of been in development, even before we went into the prison, we had been collaborating on this for a year, it was hard to separate those roles. So we did everything together and we had very few resources. Annette Clark, who was a producer at the National Film Board was great and she really helped us a lot throughout the film, but development, she really gave us this freedom to go out and experiment with this. And so, we just did it together. It was difficult, like everything takes about, I don't know, 10 meetings, you know. So it's hard. But what was great about it was that we all came from similar perspectives, but different. So we all brought things to this film and this film would not be what it is without the three of us and our perspectives and different things we fought for. And we had this rule that, well, if there's two, you know, it's like, "Okay, we got to do a vote." And so we would often do these votes, but it was it was great, but time consuming, but great.
Teresa MacInnes 5:38
And it wasn't, again, just us collaborating. We had a broadcaster who weighed, Jordana Ross from Documentary Channel, we had again Annette Clark and Michelle [van Beusekom] from the National Film Board, and then we have the women and then we had Kim Pate who was my personal inspiration for the film mean she didn't watch the filming way in but she was she was with us the whole step of the way, guiding us and I mean, this woman is somebody who this is her life's work and passion and knows every inch of every institution in this country and I have tremendous respect for her guidance in that regard. Not so much about the film, she was really good about that, but she helped us navigate the system and how we spoke about things, how we presented things, how or she had a lot of concern for the women, and so she was sort of like a council. So there were a lot of people, but the three of us, Ariella, Nance, and I logged a lot of time together, and we're still very good friends, if that's any indication of how it went and I wish they were here.
Paige Smith 6:36
Didn't break up your friendship!
Teresa MacInnes 6:38
Oh, no, it brought us together.
Paige Smith 6:41
That's awesome. Can you maybe speak to what Kim's specialty is?
Teresa MacInnes 6:46
Well, Kim when I met her I met her several years before I started making the film. She was the executive director of the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies. And for those who don't know, Elizabeth Fry is a great advocacy organization for women, they work with women in prison, on every level of advocacy help when they get out, etc. So she sort of oversaw many chapters, the chapters are actually autonomous across the country, but some of them, the majority of them, are a collective as well. So, she was the head of that, and has been a huge influence in policy around women in prison and in the course of the film became a senator, which was a surprise to her, to us. And now she's really bringing these issues to government and during the course of the film, for instance, brought senators around Human Rights Committee to examine prisons and visit prisons and make recommendations to the government so she continues to do amazing work.
Paige Smith 7:49
Yeah, it was really inspiring seeing her throughout the film and seeing what she was advocating for. And you can really like I'm not surprised the film took you four years to make because you can feel the length because time passes so much in the film. We see women, like a woman that's pregnant and then not pregnant anymore. And we see, like, people go in and out of the facilities, you know, be released, be readmitted, you see Kim become a Senator. I think one of the things that really is impactful about that is that we see the results of this broken system in a long term, and then we also see the possibilities that some of these women were able to have more happy lives because of these small little opportunities, like the project they were brainstorming and everything right? And I think it's really great that the film allows for that, you know, it's not just like, we went there for a week and here's what prisons are like, you know?
Teresa MacInnes 8:43
Yeah, well, it was important because there's been a lot of films and good films about prison and prison issues and people's experience. So we really wanted this to be something that would have impact that would really, I mean, one of the things that really got us going on this and ultimately why we decided to do it is they are the fastest growing population not only in Canada but around the world. And you know, the numbers are horrific when you look at the rates of women with addictions, with mental health issues, with trauma based issues, in poverty. These are not - the amount of Indigenous women, women of color in prison - these are not coincidences. And we, as a society, I really feel, we need to get to know them. And we need to really question, you know, it's like, why is this group, primarily the group that are in prison? And we have to question some of the policies and why are we directing so much into corrections and not into the community? So these are all the reasons we wanted to do it. And so we had to take care with it and we had to make sure we, we did it right and that the women felt it was right and Kim thought it was right and we were able to do that and we were able to do that because of, you know, ironically enough, because of also corrections, they allowed us there.
Paige Smith 10:05
Right.
Teresa MacInnes 10:06
And I think the people there agree with a lot of these things that we were saying in the film.
Paige Smith 10:11
Yeah, well the correction officer Tanya, like, she seemed like she was like a perfect character because she really - like character, I mean, just in the sense - like, she seems like the perfect avenue to express that, you know, like she was there in all their art making and she was participating. And, you know, she seemed to really care and yeah, be on the same side as the cell basically.
Teresa MacInnes 10:33
Well, Tanya is great, and she continues to be engaged with the film and with the project that came out of the film from the ground up. And it was interesting because once we were allowed to go in and meet the women and do this with the women, she was assigned as our champion because the women liked her. And, you know, she really went into it to help and I think sometimes just because of the nature of the job, it becomes difficult for them. I mean, she explains it in the film that they're forced to put up these boundaries, right? So, she was different. And yeah, I'm just so happy. She's still involved.
Paige Smith 11:15
Yeah, maybe you could speak a little bit to the project that the women developed from the ground up and what that whole idea was for the women.
Teresa MacInnes 11:24
So we spent these six days with them at the provincial prison, and we started following them. And at one point, they were all out. And probably about a year later, they were all back in and we were with them, and they were pretty down. And they were pretty like "Oh man, like" and they started talking and Tanya said, “well, ask the question again”, “but what would you have needed?” And that's when Bianca said, "I needed a place to live." Because when you see Bianca in the film, she didn’t have anywhere to go when she left. Yeah, so it started with that. And then Trina, "Yeah, I've always wanted to build a farm, right? I've always wanted...." And the whole idea was this home, like creating a place that's home, because so many people, not all, but a lot of people that end up in prison, there seems to be a trend of them being in care, being in foster care or having a really hard childhood. And so home and unconditional love, our constant theme, I certainly heard. And so, you know, and that's the hard thing about this is that, what would you have needed in your life, well you need love. You need home. So how do you, you know, and a lot of them would say, "Well, God, I just, you know, if I have to pay somebody to help me, what is that?" So, so anyway, this whole session started and they started saying, "Yeah, let's do it." And next thing, you know, because we have all these art supplies there, they started creating this house that they would have loved to have gone to and it was called ‘From the Ground Up’. That's what they called it.
Paige Smith 13:02
Yeah. And it was really beautiful seeing like they, at one point, make a 3D sort of paper house, and then they draw all their, like, kind of ideas of what it should look like. And it was really beautiful to see them like working together too and then being like, we need this and we need this and, and they talk about the cycle thing too is like, it's not just that they, you know, because the structure of the prison seems to be what, you know, some of them keep coming back because of that. So it's this ‘From the Ground Up,’ the ability to not just be helped, but to then be able to be mentors, like they talked about, which was beautiful. Yeah, it made me really happy.
Teresa MacInnes 13:40
Well, just so you know, it hasn't, it's still a dream, but they're still working on it.
Paige Smith 13:46
The women in the film?
Teresa MacInnes 13:47
The women in the film, the architects in the film, Ann Sinclair, she's still working on it.
Paige Smith 13:53
I hope it happens!
Teresa MacInnes 13:54
And they're working on it and every time we have a screening, a little idea comes out right? Like, well, what about, you know, my uncle has this piece of land, you know, whatever, you know so that's, I still have belief, I'm still an... I'm an optimist. And I still believe that community has the ability to create from the ground up however they see it because every community has different needs and different ways that they would build from the ground up. But that's our dream for all communities, is to have a place where people feel safe, and that they don't feel safer in prison than in society.
Paige Smith 14:27
Yeah, exactly. And I think the film will, will help with that, as more people see the film, it can hopefully spur those seeds and people.
Teresa MacInnes 14:35
Well, I hope so. I mean, that's the idea. And we were fortunate to work with Good Pitch Vancouver, which is run by Sue Biely and Anthony Swan and they helped us develop tools and ideas to do it at every screening. And every time we have a screening, new screenings come out, new ideas come out and it's just wonderful to be a part of something like that. And you know, we have so many ways people can get involved and it's on our website and all of that.
Paige Smith 15:05
I looked at some of the other films you've made, and you've dealt with a lot of different issues, prostitution in Canada, attitudes towards menstruation, inequality for women artists, and I'm sure with every project, you're surprised or learning something. So was there something with this project that you learned, like about the topic of women's incarceration, and everything like that?
Teresa MacInnes 15:27
What I guess at the end of the day, it always comes back to equality and each one of these things I tackle are about equality. And you know, some people say, "Well, why don't you try and put all people in prison?" women, I just think that this is I'm looking at it from an equality perspective. And for me, the most shocking thing was the amount of women in poverty and the amount of women, yeah, the women of colour, like, the numbers are so skewed. It's totally reflective of our inequality in our society. So I wasn't surprised, but it was a different perspective. And I didn't think it was as bad as, it is always that way, I didn't think it was as bad as it was, but it actually is. And so we have to, if we have the opportunity to tell these stories, we have to do it. I feel compelled to do it. And it's important, but I think that that's at the root of everything I do, is equality.
Paige Smith 16:33
Yeah, that makes sense. You can definitely see that theme and it definitely is felt throughout Conviction. You know, I even just at the end of the film, I'm sorry, I forget her name, the lady that does the smudging...
Teresa MacInnes 16:46
Laura Tony.
Paige Smith 16:46
Yeah, like you know, she has such powerful... her little sequences are so powerful with her in that red door and she just wants grass. She just wants to be touch the grass and she just wants to be able to be with the trees, like one tree, and you know, I really felt for her and at the end, she didn't have as happy an ending as some of the other women, and yeah, it was just think, it's something where we as a society really have to, like look at. I think the film is addressing this, like, you know, it's not just "do the crime and do the time," like what is the circumstance that leads to the actions that end up putting someone in prison, you know?
Teresa MacInnes 17:26
Yeah, and Kim says it well, it's not about accountability or not taking responsibility. It's about understanding the circumstances. And you know, when you have a lot and you come from a more privileged place, life is still hard, but it's nothing compared to what some people have to endure in their life. And we have to be more compassionate and understand what, I mean, it's like Trina's poem. It's like how do you feel when you're hiding below a porch and you're being taken away at 12, 13 years old, and you're scared, and you're being brought to a place and at that age. Like it's trauma induced stuff and it's not, you know, we don't want to say addiction and mental... these things come from trauma-based events. It's not the addiction or mental health issues that are causing people to do these things. It's the trauma that induces these things that then induces ... you know, so we have to look at what comes first. And so a lot of the solutions, yes, we want from the ground up, but we also have to look at kids in care. And at those systems and what we're doing when people are abused and what we're offering.
Teresa MacInnes 18:42
I come from that social work background, that's where I did my degree in psychology at SFU. I always intended to be a psychologist, and then I got into filmmaking in a fluke way, and I realized this was a really good way for people to share their stories, but my short, short stint in working with - I ran a teen mom program in Richmond for five years actually - and I realized a lot of those women were coming from a history of abuse. There was like a half time counselor for the whole entire city of Richmond at the time. I'm sure that's changed, but it really hasn't, because there's more people, so the waiting lists. So the scene in the film with Bianca at the picnic table, and she can't get through to anyone, that's a realistic scene. And you know, it takes a long time to get into detox, yet we're putting millions of dollars, billions of dollars, into prisons. Why is that? Like, why do we close our eyes to some of these issues? Why are we not putting some resources into that? That's what I've never understood, and that's kind of at the core. And I think it's, yeah, it's at the core of everything I'm doing now. And that's going to be the rest of my life's work. Yeah.
Paige Smith 19:59
Did you relate to Tanya when she spoke about the difficulty to separate her work in the prison with her personal life, did you find that difficult when you were making the film?
Teresa MacInnes 20:10
It's a good question. Yes, yes, of course. I mean, as I mentioned, I've been working in social work along, well, sort of, not social work. I started working with at-risk youth and all through university, first five years, and then all my films. So it's been something I've always had to deal with. But I'll tell you, it's hard to walk away and I did it when I was working with teen moms and I did it in this film, somebody has nowhere to go. That's a really difficult thing to do. It's a moral dilemma, it's an ethical dilemma. But I just feel the only, you know, when you don't understand something, this is what I've done, I try and make a film about it. Because it helps me try and process it. So the actual act of making the film is kind of the way I deal with it. Because I didn't know how to deal with it as a social worker because it was just so overwhelming. And I remember I'd come home and I'd say, this is like there's nobody helping these people. So I have to... and then what, you know, with the teen mom, I made a film about it. So making films is the way I deal with it! But yeah, I find living in our society difficult at times because I see things. I see the way our systems and our structures are so. So I do find it difficult.
Paige Smith 21:29
Yeah, I think it would be difficult for anyone. I think art-making in general can really help anyone with that if it's on a higher level or just a hobby and I think that's why it was really nice to see the women be participating and making their own art and everything and even like through the prompts, like it seems like it would probably help them process everything you know.
Teresa MacInnes 21:49
I love that layer of the film and I really have to thank Ariella and Nance for probably bringing that, especially Ariella, because she had done a film before Conviction where she was in a rehab center doing a lot of the same similar stuff. I was very inspired by that approach, and that's where you see this. That's why I love collaborating with other directors as they bring other layers that I might not think of. And so, I love that layer of it, too.
Paige Smith 22:16
That's awesome.
Teresa MacInnes 22:17
Yeah, I just want people to see it. And it's going to be broadcast on Documentary Channel on December 1. We have a ton of screenings leading up to that. So check out our website. It's just convictiondocumentary.com, and we list the screenings and ways people can get involved. So yeah, I just would love to communicate with people about it and any ideas people have would be awesome.
Paige Smith 22:39
Yeah, I think after seeing the film, people will want to help. I know after seeing it, I'm like, "oh, what can we do?" Like this seems like something we really need to work all together on.
Teresa MacInnes 22:50
Yeah.
Paige Smith 22:51
Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you for joining us and having this conversation with me. It was a pleasure to talk to you and, and watch the movie and everything, so thank you.
Teresa MacInnes 22:59
Well, thank you, Paige. I enjoyed it too.
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Paige Smith 23:02
Thank you again to Teresa MacInnes for joining us on this episode of Below the Radar. To learn more about the documentary film Conviction and hear about upcoming screenings, you can check out the link in the description below. As always, many thanks to our team that puts this podcast together, including myself, Paige Smith, Rachel Wong, and Fiorella Pinillos. Davis Steele is the composer of our theme music and thank you for listening. We'll catch you next time on Below the Radar.
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