Below the Radar Transcript
Episode 92: On Arrival and Belonging — with Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan
Speakers: Melissa Roach, Am Johal, Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan
Melissa Roach 0:06
Hi, I'm Melissa Roach with Below the Radar, a knowledge democracy podcast. Below the Radar is recorded on the territories of the Musqueam. Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh peoples. Today's episode features SFU's Associate Vice President of External Relations Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan. Our host am Johal speaks with Sobhana about her experience immigrating from Malaysia 25 years ago, and how she found community and work that's meaningful to her here in BC. I hope you enjoy.
Am Johal 0:41
Welcome to Below the Radar, everyone. We're very excited to have Shobanha with us this afternoon for for a conversation. Welcome, Shobhana.
Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan 0:51
Good afternoon, Am.
Am Johal 0:53
Wondering if we can maybe begin by you introducing yourself a little bit?
Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan 0:59
Sure, yes. So I was born in Malaysia. And when I was five years old, I went to India to pursue my education, and went to a common boarding school, and completed my Master's in Social Work in India, and moved back to Malaysia for a couple of years. And then from there, I immigrated to Canada, and I've had 25 years now in this beautiful country.
Am Johal 1:27
So so you're currently now the Associate Vice President of External Relations at SFU. Wondering if you can talk a little bit about what you do with SFU, now.
Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan 1:40
So I joined Simon Fraser University in 2017, and I was hired as a VP of External Relations. So, my portfolio is mainly an external facing role, with a focus on government relations, community relations, and in the last two and a half years, I've had the great honor of co-facilitating some of the reconciliation initiatives at SFU.
Am Johal 2:10
Now, it's quite a journey, going from India and Malaysia to Canada 25 years ago, wondering if you can talk a little bit about your arrival to Canada and what that looked like for you?
Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan 2:26
Yes, it's been... it's been quite the journey. So, I arrived in Canada, in the summer of 1995. And just to sort of play a bit of a rewind over there, I went back to Malaysia after I finished my master's with the full intention of settling there, because I had a Malaysian citizenship, and in working in different parts of Malaysia, but when I got there, I was really, really disheartened to experience a very different kind of Malaysia than what I had in mind, in the sense that not having grown up there, not speaking the Malay language became a huge barrier for me, in terms of educational and career opportunities. But also, in the 90s, what I experienced was a very very classist sort of society, with the different ethnic groups being a bit siloed in the community. And I just didn't feel a sense of belonging. And I couldn't see myself living there for the rest of my life. So at that time, my brother who was already here in Canada, encouraged me to apply for permanent residency, and told me that there were great opportunities for social workers in Canada. So I arrived in Canada in the June of 1995. I was in my late 20s, I was married then, and it was just such an adventure. You know, getting off the plane in Vancouver. I remember just standing there for a second passing, looking at the sunny blue skies, and just feeling absolutely delighted to land in Vancouver. And I was just so looking forward to what was to follow.
Am Johal 4:37
Now, in terms of leaving the kind of political disruptions and turmoil that was going on in Malaysia at that time, in the mid 90s, and arriving in Vancouver, with fresh eyes to the city, this country, the number of ways of how did you perceive it. What did that arrival look like? Or what does the sort of observations of the outsider coming in look like?
Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan 5:09
So what's so interesting about the 90s, at least for me personally, is I didn't have a cell phone, I didn't have access to internet, I didn't have a laptop of my own. You know, those were the days when you picked up the traditional phones, and you call folks or you wrote letters. And so, because there wasn't this huge influence and impact of social media and all the different channels we have now, I landed in Canada, absolutely... with an open slate, I would say, All I knew was I was coming to beautiful city, and that my brother, who encouraged me to apply to come here, had had a very positive experience. And the little that I'd read about Canada, when I applied for permanent residency, had to do more with the governance of the country, the multiculturalism, the great tourist destinations. So I sort of landed here with a very, very positive outlook on what my future was going to be. But my first impressions landing at the YR airport was so positive. I remember the immigration officer who was processing my papers, you know, super friendly, and asked me a whole bunch of questions. And... and then commented, "Oh, you actually speak good English." And... over the years, that comment has been made a few times. And I remember the first time I heard it, I asked myself, "Now, why wouldn't I speak good English?" Not realizing there was a, you know, there was some context to that question. But my first experiences was so positive, folks were friendly, I had absolutely no negative experiences, you know, landing in the country to begin with. So for me, overall, even when I look at the last 25 years, it has been such a positive journey. Not that it didn't have its, you know, huge share of struggles and unpleasant moments. But overall, for me, it has been what I thought it would be a fantastic adventure.
Am Johal 7:21
Now, one of your first jobs when you arrived here, you had mentioned to me once was at GM Place, can you share a little bit about that time?
Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan 7:32
Yes, GM Place... every time I, you know, I pass what is now called Rogers Arena, but previously, GM Place, every time I'm on the Skytrain, and I pass that, I sort of, you know, get pushed into memory lane. So when I came to Canada, in the June of 1995, I came believing that I would have absolutely no problems, getting a job as a counselor, or social worker or a community development officer or something along those lines. And much to my surprise, I did not get even a phone call when I started to apply for jobs. And the first month or two, I was focused on jobs that required degrees in social work or psychology. And I did not get a single response. It very quickly dawned on me that there is a problem. So, I went to an immigrant and refugee resettlement agency in Coquitlam. I was staying in Coquitlam at the time, and I asked them if they could help me. So they updated my resume, made it a bit more Canadian in terms of its style, and then encouraged me to apply for all kinds of jobs, including minimum wage jobs. So I realized that because I am different, I looked different, I talk different, and my education is from another country, chances are, I will not be able to pursue a social work career anytime soon. So I started to apply for minimum wage jobs. And the only response I got was from GM Place. So I went to the interview. And there was a man and a woman who interviewed me and they said that I was overqualified for the job. And it may be better for me to explore other job opportunities. And I was devastated because I perceived it as at that point in time as I was not even good enough for a minimum wage job in Canada, and it broke my heart. It really, really hurt my self esteem and my sense of self worth. In that moment, out of sheer desperation, I looked at the woman looked into her eyes and I said, "I desperately need a job. And I am willing to do any job here at GM Place." And the next thing I know, they offered me the job of an usher. And they said that my wage would be $7.50 an hour. And the shifts generally tend to go between five and midnight, when the Canucks and the Grizzlies, the basketball team played at GM Place. So that's how I started my career in Canada.
Am Johal 10:27
Now, did you become a Canucks and a Grizzlies fan during that period?
Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan 10:32
So I eventually became a Canucks and Grizzlies fan, but it was easier for me to immediately become a Grizzlies fan, because I knew a lot about basketball. And I loved basketball. But I'll tell you the truth: I had never read or seen anything to do with ice hockey. And being the first year in Canada, I struggled with the cold weather. And I could not understand why people would play on ice. And it was so cold in there! So it took me a while to fall in love with the Canucks. But now I'm a Canucks fan, too.
Am Johal 11:09
Yeah, those were tumultuous years for the Canucks at that time period after their Stanley Cup run and... Grizzlies was, so I missed the Grizzlies, they were so good. So in terms of when you started out your career and working in social work in those early days following your time at at GM Place--can you talk a little bit about that period in terms of doing social work in in BC?
Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan 11:38
Absolutely. So when I was working at GM Place, I got a job, a second job, at Coast Foundation, which is an organization in Vancouver that provides very, very valuable services to adults with severe mental illness. So, I was their employment counselor. So generally, my day would start around nine, and I would look at Coast Foundation till about five. And then I would hop on a bus, go over to GM Place, get changed into my uniform, and then work from about 6:30 to, you know, about midnight, and then come back home. So that's what I did the first couple of months. And because I had heard so much about how difficult it is to get a job, and... the few immigrant folks that I met, said that it would be next to impossible for me to become a social worker in this country. So I kept both jobs. And then one day I saw an ad in the Vancouver Sun. And the ad said that the BC Ministry for Children and Families needed 300 social workers. So I wrote entrance exam, which required a 70% pass. And after that, I got a call to be interviewed. Now, those days, because of a lack of access to Internet and other things... it was very difficult to prepare for these interviews, and even to get a sense of what the focus of the interviews would be. So during the interview, what happened was that--because this was for the position, or title, child protection social worker, all the questions that I was asked, had to do with BC child welfare, and specific legislation and policies. And to tell you the truth, Am? I was clueless, what these questions really meant. So I did my best to interpret it and give examples about the different things I did in India and in Malaysia, in the field of social work. And I got a sense that I was just not giving them the right answers. The last question, thankfully, was a roleplay. And I was asked to play the role of a social worker who was going into the home of a mother who was struggling with poverty, addictions issues, and who was very upset to see a child protection social worker at the door. So the roleplay instruction was that I need to engage with her effectively, and then I need to try and convince her to take help and deal with the issues so that her children would be okay to continue to live with her, and I could close my neglect abuse investigation. To cut a very long story short later I found out that I actually did not do well in the interview--I did not pass the interview, but I scored very high marks for the role play. And the panel was convinced that I had what it takes to be a social worker. So they decided to hire me and put me on six months probation. And that decision that that panel made, and the choice they need to go beyond my answers changed my life, and the lives of my two children, more than anything else in Canada.
Am Johal 15:29
Now, you worked in a variety of settings, including in Haida Gwaii. And when I've spoken with you before, you've talked about how you were welcomed into the community in terms of the forms of inclusion that people have, and this is always a challenging thing in a in a Canadian context, but wondering if you can talk a little bit about that time of your life when you lived and worked in Haida Gwaii.
Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan 15:57
Yeah, so. Working and living in Haida Gwaii, I would say is one of the highlights of my life in Canada. Haida Gwaii is magical. The place is beautiful, the people are so warm and welcoming and kind and generous. It's just one of those... little paradises, I think, on the planet. So what took me to Haida Gwaii, is actually quite interesting, so. As a child protection social worker, you struggle with this authority, and this delegation you have from the Minister, that gives you the power to investigate families when there's allegations of child abuse and neglect. And it's one of those situations where you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. Very quickly, within the first three, four years, in my frontline experience, I started to realize that there is an issue when it comes to Indigenous children and communities. Though the Indigenous population was very small, in BC, in the 90s, the number of children in government care and in foster care was horrendously high, it was more than 50%. And there were huge challenges in working within Indigenous communities, but the challenge was more on the part of the child welfare system, which applied a very Eurocentric, a very Western way of looking at child welfare, children's best interests, and all of those things. So I started to struggle with this issue. And I told my first supervisor who was my mentor, and a dear friend, I told her, "I don't think I can continue working as a social worker, it just doesn't feel good, and I afraid I am going to end up hurting a child by removing them from their family when I shouldn't. And I think I should leave the ministry." And this wonderful woman, Ruth, told me that it's very important for people like me who are self reflective, and who worry about the ethics and the jurisdictions of child welfare, to remain in child welfare, and help change the system. So during this time, I was asked to support the Stó:lō nation to set up the first child welfare intake office in Chilliwack. And during that time, I visited one of the closed residential schools there, met with elders, and engaged with community members. And they were very, very open, honest, and blunt with me. And at that point, I had a conversation with one of the child welfare staff there. And I said, "I think I'm part of the problem. And I'm thinking of leaving." And she responded and said, "Well, that's what most people do run away from the problem. Why don't you go work in an Indigenous community and help fix the problems?" She said it with such sincerity and passion, I decided to follow through with that advice. And when a team leader position opened up in Haida Gwaii, I moved to Haida Gwaii. And one of the first things that struck me when I got off the little ferry, near Skidegate... I felt that I was at home. There was something about the place that made me feel I didn't need to make an extra effort to blend in to try and be like somebody else. I could just be Sobhana. And the two years that I was there, that was the experience. I felt that the Haida people, the families, the Haida leaders that I met, I felt I didn't need to explain things more than once. They just got me. And it was just a deep connection and a bond I felt with people in Haida Gwaii. And we did some great work together. And I was very, very sad to to leave that to community. But on the point that you asked me to touch on, Am, the issue of inclusion... I think what is very, very special, I think, about Indigenous cultures is that... they have had the experience of being excluded--they still are excluded from decision making, from community initiatives, from participating fully in building the economy of a country, so many places where they continue to be excluded. So I think when someone has experienced exclusion, it becomes I think, not just easier, like you're compelled to practice inclusion. And I think that's what happened for me in Haida Gwaii.
Am Johal 21:21
You know, Shobhana, in the development of immigration patterns, and certainly there's historical ones that go back a century and further, right, to the beginnings of colonialism, but in the post-Second World War period, and certainly in the opening up of immigration, 60s and 70s. The... As progressive a policy as the government tried to make it, but was very much around welcoming people in and... but giving them a kind of place. And if you left that place that was designated for you as your place of inclusion, there was all sorts of forces that snapped back in many ways--and I think about the context of my parents immigrating in the 60s and early 70s, a very different time that the point system that we have today that adjudicates immigration, they wouldn't be allowed in under today's model, than from the time that they got in, so there's been a lot of changes--or you see a context where we have all sorts of progressive policies or in Quebec, where there are policies in place around wearing religious symbols, for example. And so you do see these kinds of forms in different parts of the country, that play out. And you're someone who has friends from many countries, and there's historical layers to immigrant communities, people who came in... in the 40s, and 50s, have a vastly different experience and those who might have immigrated in the 90s or more recently, and so by its very nature, particularly in urban contexts, where the majority of immigration to Canada goes into the cities of Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver. How do we think through this difference? And how do you think about your own friendships in terms of communities that you are involved with in your own? How do we think about friendship and community and how to be together through all of this difference?
Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan 23:37
Oh, I love this question, Am. You know, when I look back at 25 years in Canada, you know, what makes me smile, is the number of friends and the friendships I've developed over the years, with individuals from all over the world, you know, different backgrounds, different fates, different belief systems, different political ideologies. And when I think about my life, I just feel that it has just been enriched so much as a result of these friendships. And I would never have had this had I chosen to stay and continue, you know, my adulthood in either India or in Malaysia, because that is where like you said, I was designated, right? And so I would have stayed with people who had lots of similarities were with me or my family, and it would have been things that I was very comfortable doing all the time. And over 25 years, I think I've been very fortunate to have had those friendships. And it has challenged me to think about a lot of things that I just took for granted. It has forced me to rethink my position on things and it has given me a deeper appreciation for the struggles people of all cultures face, irrespective of how long they have been in Canada or not. And through all of this, it has made me very aware of the unique reality and the struggles of Indigenous peoples who after having been the first people, still having to fight for their fundamental rights, and having to fight to belong in a country that's theirs. So yeah, I think the friendships I think, make a huge difference. And it definitely saves you from feeling isolated. It saves you from getting lonely, and feeling that nobody understands you. It also just helps you get through life, the ups and downs, both in your personal and professional life, because you now have not just many people who care about you, but you also can access different worldviews and different ways of problem solving to get through these situations.
Am Johal 26:12
Sobhana, is there anything you'd like to add?
Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan 26:16
This has been a wonderful conversation with you, Am. It's just been actually not just fun, but also, I think, sort of very meaningful to reflect on 25 years in Canada, all of which I've spent actually in British Columbia, and... just very, very grateful to have had the opportunities I've had, grateful for the mentors that I've had over the years, the opportunity to work in public service for 20 years, and now with SFU. But one of the things that I did not touch on which I want to conclude with, with it is one of the most important things that I have done in the last 25 years is actually the pro bono work. Volunteering for different organizations and volunteering my time to mentor youth over the last 25 years has really, really changed my experience living, growing up, and working in this country. And if there's one thing I can say to anybody out there, it's from the moment you land in a foreign country, as an immigrant, start volunteering. It can change your life, and you can change the lives of so many.
Am Johal 27:47
Thank you so much, Sobhana. You have such a calm, soothing voice, I could talk to you all day. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us on Below the Radar.
Melissa Roach 27:57
Below the Radar is a knowledge democracy podcast produced by SFU's Vancity Office of Community Engagement. Thank you for tuning into our conversation with Sobhana Jaya-Madhavan. Learn more about Sobhana and her work at the links in the show notes, and subscribe and follow us at BTR_pod on Twitter to never miss an episode. See you next time on Below the Radar.