Below the Radar Transcript

B-Side, Track 7: Soundtrack to a Coup d’Etat — with Johan Grimonprez

Speakers: Samantha Walters, Am Johal, Johan Grimonprez

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Samantha Walters  0:04 
Hello listeners! I’m Sam with Below the Radar, a knowledge democracy podcast. Below the Radar is recorded on the territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh peoples. On this episode of the Below the Radar B-Sides, we’re joined by Johan Grimonprez, a Belgian multimedia artist, filmmaker, and curator whose film Soundtrack to a Coup d’Etat was nominated for the Oscar for Best Documentary at the 97th Academy Awards. Am and Johan discuss Johan’s past video work, and what Johan discovered along the way in creating and sharing Soundtrack to a Coup d’Etat. Enjoy the episode!

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Am Johal  0:45 
Hello, welcome to Below the Radar, or what might be an alternative name by the time this podcast comes out... We are here with our special guest this week, Johan Grimonprez is with us. Welcome, Johan.

Johan Grimonprez  0:58 
Hello, I'm pleased to be here. Thanks for offering the platform, and I hope you can hold the platform as long as you can.

Am Johal  1:04 
Yeah, Johan, maybe we can begin with you introducing yourself a little bit?

Johan Grimonprez  1:09 
Yeah, I'm a filmmaker, but I often like expand it to storytelling, because as much curator or visual artist or teacher or curator. In the past 30, 40 years, made a couple of films, one that sort of made a big splash. So yeah, basically, storyteller, making films, curator, also visual artist, sort of in situ intervention sometimes, but also the teaching as a practice is a big part of how I come to make my works, make the research, confront it. And then sometimes turn that inside out as part of an exhibition where, you know, it's like my brain turned outside as sort of an iPad, a lifestyle installation iPad that makes the thinking visible, and so I include the research. So vlogs, not blogs, but vlogs, video research that I actually have compiled. And there's several ones. One is sort of on radical ecology and tender gardening, or maybe the sky is really green and we're just colorblind. Or the latest one, All Memory is Theft, and all of these are now going to be part of an exhibition in a retrospective at the Zentrum für Kunst und Medien in Karlsruhe. So just to say that actually teaching, because all these vlogs I used to teach, that teaching is very much part of the practice as well. Or podcasts like this, or, you know, for me, it's all part of the practice, because a film at one point, drifts above the water as an iceberg, and it's a tip of an iceberg. But for me, the works never finished underneath. It's so much sort of rhizomatic, sort of multiplications about certain themes that sort of just a moment, right? But of course, that moment is more visible in the world and gets more sort of distributed out there.

Am Johal  2:48 
So I recently, or I guess it was a few months back, saw Soundtrack to Coup d'Etat at the Vancouver International Film Festival back in late September, early October. It was a full audience at the Vancouver Playhouse and just a mesmerizing film. The audience loved it and gave it a standing ovation at the end as well. But before we jump into that work, I wanted to— since we base it out of an art school ourselves at SFU, it'd be just interesting to hear about your own sort of training in work early as a university student, in terms of finding your own practice, how you came into your practice?

Johan Grimonprez  3:33 
Oh, okay, I was shopping a bit around. I was in film departments, photography departments, but I was as well part of the university in Ghent, studying what, at the time was called cultural anthropology. And it was sort of more the Bourdieu school, you know, the post structural school. But, and for me already, from then onwards, to me, it was like, you know, even if I endeavored in the first film that had to do with sort of cultural anthropology, it was more of an anthropology of anthropology, where it dissected that anthropology is so much more a stepchild of colonialism. So the discourse about the film is as sometimes as much as important to dig in, as much as the visual exploration. And so I set forth, we're talking mid 80s. I was actually spending some time on the border between Papua, New Guinea and Irian Jaya, which is West Papua. But I stumbled onto, sort of the OPM, the Organisasi Papua Merdeka, and they're a guerrilla group, and I was just, I just sort of finished school, and I was thrown out there, and suddenly, being 24 year old, sort of out there trying to sort of explore my practice, that actually was a game changer. Because for the first time, I was sort of, you know, Belgium is very sheltered, and we can talk about that as well in relation to the Belgian Congo and to its colonial sort of past. But for me, it was a game changer because I suddenly was in confrontation with people that told me, you know, my mom has been killed. My brother's been killed. You know, the transmigration project that actually are sponsored by the World Bank, are partially responsible for that. But it goes back to what happened mid 60s in Indonesia, with Sukarno being overthrown and then Suharto being installed by the CA, et cetera, et cetera. But I was there in 1986 and villages were being napalmed around Freeport copper mine, and I learned this through Amnesty International. And so all of that was, for me, a big game changer that really defined how my film practice would sort of be explored and researched later on. So we're talking mid 80s. I was still, I was just, you know, a student, and then following up on that, I took on courses in New York, studied at School of Visual Arts, and film was part of that. And so this experience in Irian Jaya, but we should call also West Papua, which because there's still a secessionist war going on, but those West Papuans are outnumbered by transmigration projects of Javanese, poor Javanese families, so there's a lot of tension there still today, knowing that 1 million profit is coming out of Freeport copper mine, which is $1 million of profits. And so nothing sort of spooled back to the local population. But anyway, that as a theme became important for my first sort of film, Kobarweng or Where Is Your Helicopter? Dealing immediately with sort of that decolonization movement or rethinking about sort of the periphery and what's sort of, where do I come from? Where do I stand? How do we define our world and stuff?

Am Johal  6:37 
You've also had some involvement with documenta as well, right?

Johan Grimonprez  6:40 
Yeah, that was, again, it was, I was invited because of the vlog. The vlog was called Beware! In playing the phantom you become one. Prends Garde! A jouer au fantôme, on le devient. So it was an allusion to media, but also Michel Leiris' sort of quote, which is sort of about the phantom, but it's also about decolonization. But at the time, he took it on as sort of a quote that deals with media, and this vlog was very much a media archeology that dissected several themes. You know, it was, for example, dissecting science fiction in relation to ethnographic films and exploring the imaginary other. Or there would be family rituals which would delve into sort of nuclear family and questioning that gender fluidity. Or there would be, for example, a couple of sections on dissecting what is sort of terrorism. You know, as Howard Zinn says, you know, war is terrorism with a bigger budget. So we would question very much the notion of what is terrorism. And that was the initial invitation by Catherine David for documenta 10. And then on the side, I was getting a budget, but I was already working also on a diptych that was in Centre Pompidou. I was invited to make a new project, but also the video library, the vlog would be installed as well there. And Catherine David said, why don't we show also Dial H-I-S-T-O-R-Y? But Dial H-I-S-T-O-R-Y was still in the make, and then when it opened and premiered at Centre Pompidou and documenta 10 it became sort of a big splash, and it overshadowed the video library, the vlog, which, at the time was still VHS, right? And the idea was, you come, it was at the local television, and we had specifically chosen that coffee would be part of it. You take sofa, and then you take a remote control and you ask for a VHS tape, and then you plug in your own, you put in your own VHS tape. You could fast forward and rewind and take another one if you don't like it. So you were becoming a bit your own curator. But it also arrested, sort of the consumption mode of when guides were taking people on the documenta tour, they always ended up there because you could get a coffee and rest and sit and then at your ease, sort of watch whatever you sort of as your own, as being the curator, watch whatever you would please to watch. But you know, in the press, everything was about Dial H-I-S-T-O-R-Y, and the film then came out as well. It was a huge plus. So then Dial H-I-S-T-O-R-Y crossed over to television, because it was invited to also be acquired for art television. But that history, which is a film about the history of airplane hijacking, but in relation to, you know, a very short history of present day media. It's a media archeology, also of media, and that set against a narration taken from Don DeLillo's book Mao II, where a terrorist and a novelist are having a conversation, and the novelist contends that, you know, while the terrorist has maybe taken over my role, because she's able to play the media much better than I am. And it's that role of sort of, again, questioning terrorism, but the cultural factor of of the narration being built by a writer, and the cultural factor as a filmmaker, because for me, it's also autobiographical as a filmmaker, how much can you still add to world that is sort of full of images? You know, we're being bombarded with images. And so as a filmmaker, where do you stand, even, not only when it comes to media culture, but where do you stand as a filmmaker when you have, you know, political agency, the access to the political sort of debate? For me, was a crucial question as well, in relation to the writer as well. These are complex questions, but it was all present in Dial H-I-S-T-O-R-Y.

Am Johal  10:18 
I have an obscure question to ask you, because one of the things that our office and you have in common is that we've both interviewed Michael Hardt on love.

Johan Grimonprez  10:30 
Ah, yes!

Am Johal  10:31 
Yeah, wondering if you can talk— We interviewed him for our podcast. He came to Vancouver to speak about his 70s book, but when he went back home, I approached him to write about love because I'd been working on a book on friendship and communities through the work of Jean Luc Nancy with my collaborator, Matt. So I reached out to him, because if you're talking about friendship and community, notions of love and solidarity come to forefront. And as I had seen Michael give a talk, I think, in Banff, and he'd been at the European Graduate School giving some some seminars. I went back, they were on YouTube, and they're 10 or 15 years ago. It was interesting he was talking about how, you know, he didn't end up writing a book on love, because people were telling him he was being too Italian, and, you know, some of the stuff was too theological, or something like that. But it was interesting to go back to speak to him about these lectures from many years ago. So that was our route into that conversation. We did a small book, actually an edited version of that podcast interview, but wondering if you can share a little bit how your interview, came to be with Michael.

Johan Grimonprez  11:35 
Well, we, at the time we were working at Shadow World, which is based on the book by Andrew Feinstein, which is an exploration in the global arms trade, actually the corruption in the global arms trade, but that's completely a— It's actually the one and the same thing as Andrew Feinstein says there's no arms deal that doesn't have component of corruption. But we interviewed that, Michael Hardt for that film, and I think it was 2014, 2013, 2014, somewhere. And then some of his interview ended up in the bigger film, the feature film, Shadow World, which was then aired on PBS and ITVS. But I thought the interview was sort of more interesting, and then we made a separate addendum, or a short film called Everyday Words Disappear, with an interview, with that longer interview of Michael Hardt, and then spliced with Alphaville. But why Alphaville? So, of course, the notions of the politics of love that Michael Hardt talks about, right? And so he ends the book Multitude with the word love. The very last word in the book Multitude is love. So it announces Commonwealth. It announces his research into the commons. But I think he calls it the common, he wants to historically make it different and sort of make a distinction, because very often there's also confusion. Our common sounds like communism, but it's not 'com'. 'Com' means actually together, right? Community, etc. So that's where the 'com' of common comes from. And in that little film, he sort of expands on these notions of the politics of love. Refers to Spinoza where sort of the sense of joy in a community is sort of the barometer of that political agency. And then he refers also to the work on the common. But there is some, he starts, first of all with referring to The Prince, Machiavelli, right? By Machiavelli and The Prince where, there's two choices set forward. Should we rule by love or by fear? And that's the portion that we also included in Shadow World. So to again, sort of, if we critique what's wrong with the world, and the big elephant is in this world is actually, for me, also the, it's the banking and also the defense. You shouldn't call it defense industry. It should be called war industry, because very much they're defining also foreign policy. But this is another discussion we can have later on. But he postulates that sort of choice between love and fear, and fear is actually helped within the ruler, because then he can control the masses, but the love is actually helped by the community and decides if they gonna go with the ruler or not. 

Johan Grimonprez  14:14 
And so Machiavelli's suggestion to the prince is that if you want to keep in power and control the masses, you better go with fear. But, asks Michael Hardt, what if we actually would define our choices based on community and hence love? And I think it's a very important question, but you know, you have to know there's some— love is a huge abstract notion. And [Lauren] Berlant, who actually was on stage with Michael Hardt several times, Chicago scholar, [Lauren] Berlant, who also writes about love, she says, you know, maybe there is some trouble also, because love is such a huge subject, and it's very abstract. Can it actually held all the sort of the practicalities of what politics is all about? That's one. But also you have the intimate sphere, and as as Hannah Arendt says, you know, if you marry love and politics, you get into fascism. And so, there's the danger where you subject a sort of an intimate sphere to politics, and there's a danger, there's a contention that might actually be problematic. And so but also love and passion can actually turn in its opposite. And he warns about that as well, Michael Hardt. He says, you know, love can also be the wrong love of love for the country, or love for the fundamental cause, or love for the same. And he says, but you know, love of difference may be more important. But there is a contingent where the love as an abstract notion doesn't cover all the sort of the concrete sort of solutions of what common would be, right? And the common and subjectivity, you know? Well, there's something else, but, you know, the common is very much rooted in community, where the decisions are being made about a resource that is shared by the community, right? And subjectivity, the agency of the subject, is defined through actually partaking in that community. But that for me, yet I always wanted to have that little film by Michael Hardt on the politics of love, Everyday Words Disappear, in dialog with [Lauren] Berlant. And so what we did then, we chose Alphaville. But still, Alphaville was made in '65 by Jean Luc Godard, and it's a society where everything about sort of articulation, about love and affection and tenderness is being sort of banned at the threat of death, right? And I think when Michael Hardt was talking about how we have to define the notion of community or love, but in essence community, that we actually missed the concept, or that a lot have been atrophied when it comes to how we have defined community in relation to the common you know, for example, agriculture was always done in community, and it was in relationship with the forest. And the forest was part of how architecture, the building and shelter, came about. And so there was always a dialog, interspecies dialog with the forest. Or agriculture was done, seeding and harvesting was done together. Now people say, oh, you know, we have a garden community here in Greece. And people say, oh, it's such a hard labor. But we forget that actually, 300, 400 years ago, there was a whole different sense of how one would define, not sort of everything that is important according to community and value of economics, and everything has been reduced to values of economics. Anyway, big notions again, to come back to your question.

Am Johal  17:37 
Totally, yeah, well, let's come back then to Soundtrack to a Coup d'Etat, which, as I understand, speaking to just before the interview will be on the screens in Canada soon or right now, basically, but wondering— Once again, I saw it at the Vancouver International Film Festival, wonderful film, and just entranced with the concept, the way that it was made. Your film and visual and musical techniques and editing. But let's maybe, if you could start with just how you came up with the concept to start the film first of all.

Johan Grimonprez  18:13 
Okay, yeah, well, indeed, it's, I think it's released yesterday or today or something. Because, yeah, I'm going to have to follow up with some interviews as well, with the national broadcast as well. But coming back and actually expanding a bit on what we just talked about, about Michael Hardt and the common. You know, for me, you have, in the title soundtrack to Coup d'Etat. So you have the musical element and you have the political element. And so while in the film, what's zoomed in on, is, for me, if politics was all about divide and conquer, then the music was about making community, about bringing people together, in a nutshell, because it's literally called Soundtrack to a Coup d'Etat. And the music is, is many faceted, right? Because, you know, it was at a point where we're mid 60s, Louis Armstrong is being sent as a jazz ambassador to the Congo, but is used as a decoy to hide that actually the CIA, together with my country, Belgium, because they were labeling Patrice Lumumba a communist. But that was a way to get the Americans on their side, to get the United States on their side, sort of and plotting to overthrow the first democratically elected government by the premier Patrice Lumumba, and even assassinating him. And that was in the make while Louis Armstrong arrived in the Congo. So again, you have the black jazz, in a very schizophrenic way had to defend democracy, while back at home, segregation was still law of the land and they could not vote and were second rate citizens. In the meantime, they had to sort of represent democracy, which sort of was already very hypocritical, but underneath also there was a plot happening. Was very similar with Dizzy Gillespie as a jazz investor sent to Syria in 1956. Operation Straggle is already been plotted by the CA underneath where they are buying up the Syrian government. And there's Dizzy playing, you know, unbeknownst, because they're not in the know of the secret machinations underneath. But he's been sent out to Syria. Similar with Dave Brubeck. Dave Brubeck was in Syria in 1958 and he was literally— his tour was being prolonged by the brother of Allen Dulles, the head of the CIA Foster Dulles, who was then Secretary of State. You have the Dulles brothers, right? And so he literally prolonged that jazz tour in the Middle East because he was afraid of the Pan Arab movement, where Abdel Nasser, then leader of Egypt, was joining with Syria as one country in the United Arab Republic. And the State Department was freaking out. And so the jazz ambassadors were being used as sort of chess pieces in in a global political game. Again, hence that allusion to Soundtrack to a Coup d'Etat. That does not mean that actually those black jazz ambassadors were passive instruments, right? So Dizzy, even in a quote in the film is that I didn't go out there to sugarcoat segregation back home, they were very much aware. So when they were briefed by the State Department, he said, you know, I've been briefed 300 years, alluding to, of course, the situation, the transatlantic passage to the United States, etc, etc. And even Louis Armstrong, he refused, during his jazz tour in Africa, to play for an apartheid audience in South Africa. Or he would grill Moïse Tshombe with the then, sort of secessionist leader that was propped up by the mining industry Union Minière, the Belgian company that was trying to sort of break apart the Congo, Lumumba's Congo. And Moïse Tshombe hosted Louis Armstrong. And Louis Armstrong was very much grilling Moïse Tshombe. While he's sitting in front of the then leader, the CIA chief, Larry Devlin. But he was not labeled a CIA chief. That was undercover. But he's sitting there and grilling Moïse Tshombe, saying you're in bed with big money, alluding to Union Minière. And so it's not that because they sent out as jazz musicians that they were passive instruments. There were sort, of course, things they did not know that sort of the CIA were plotting to assassinate Patrice Lumumba and that, literally, at that moment Mobutu arrives, also, Joseph Mobutu, sorry, arrives in Katanga as well. And it's the moment where Larry Devlin is concocting with Moïse Tshombe to arrange against payment, together with the Belgians, because the Belgian Secret Service is also present during that dinner where Louis Armstrong is present. And so you see all that clash. But for Louis Armstrong, you know, he was not in the know, that actually that was being plotted under his nose. We have the interview with Trummy trombone, alluding to that as well, saying, you know, well, you know, we were all siding with Lumumba. If he had known, they would have been very upset. And he was upset when he came home, when he learned about Abbey Lincoln and Max Roach crashing the Security Council in protest for the murder of Patrice Lumumba, which was announced by Adlai Stevenson, the then US representative to the United Nations. I'm going off in all tangents, right?

Am Johal  23:13 
No, this is great. This is great because I think the film is just aesthetically and essentially, so rich and so unique. I see the term cine-collage used, and just the sheer volume of archival footage, interviews, texts, footnotes, jazz soundtracks, ways to convey the paranoid style of American politics, all of those pieces that get put together into a kind of virtuoso jazz performance in the background. It's an incredible feat of work like, can you speak a little bit to the actual mechanics of editing and pulling a film like this together?

Johan Grimonprez  23:55 
There's many facets and it's many layers. So there's a vertical building and a horizontal building, but first of all, the layers I chose for a kaleidoscopic approach, because as a Belgian, you know, I was very cautious. You know, there's a difference between speaking for and speaking with, and so I was very cautious for appropriation. And so Amelia invited a couple of narrators to be part of the film and to go in dialog with. So there's a kaleidoscopic approach where we introduce Andrée Blouin, who was a pan Africanist freedom fighter, and she became the chief of protocol and speechwriter for Patrice Lumumba. But also started a women's movement in the Kwilu Province, which tipped, I am convinced that she tipped actually the voting towards sort of the majority, not necessarily Lumumba's National Party, but also the party of Pierre Mulele and Antoine Gizenga in the Kwilu Province, which was the PSA, which then made an alliance with Patrice Lumumba to actually have the majority, even if the Belgians refused to acknowledge it. But Andrée Blouin was very important in that situation. Although women could not vote and could not be part of the government. I'm sure if that would have been the situation, Andrée Blouin would have been part of Lumumba's government. But she became Chief of Protocol and speechwriter, and she, I think, in the two months and a half reign that Patrice Lumumba was premier. We tried to sort of shed a light through her eyes and through her perspective and through her memoirs. And we got in touch with Eve Blouin, her daughter, which actually, she just republished the book. You know, it was, it was out of print. You could hardly find it. Was going for a lot of money on the internet. And it was published in the 1980s and and it's for the first time, it's out there, again in French and in English. And so I think it's a week and a half ago or a week ago that it was in England, sort of come to press and the bookstores. But we got in touch with Eve Blouin, who agreed that we could use, there's only, I think, three or four or five chapters that deal with the Congo. But still, it's crucial and important enough to shed a light how, for example, Patrice Lumumba was put on a dead list, as well as Andrée Blouin by the Belgians and the CIA. Not only that, for example, Eve Blouin sent us an undeveloped role of film. And the home movies of herself as a two year old daughter being with her mom in the Congo. Were such wonderful images that we immediately decided, oh, that should be part of it. And so this is just one narrative voice, right, which is read by, it's read by Zap Mama, Marie Daulne, who's a Belgium-Congolese singer, and her dad was actually killed in the East province of the Congo, but there's a similarity between her life and that of Andrée Blouin. So we invited Zap Mama also to be part of it and read the memoirs. But what I think is interesting, how those intimate home movies clash with the bigger political picture. 

Johan Grimonprez  26:59 
And it's very similar to In Koli Jean Bofane, who we invited to read the part of his book, Congo Inc. And Congo Inc, the algorithm Congolese, which is about how every, basically conflict mineral, mineral that was sourced for world wars in 20th century were sourced from the Congo but actually never made it back as sort of benefiting the population, the general population. Interesting, I think, an interesting take of his that he takes it all the way up to war and space and talking about Colton and lithium. And we actually with his story, we went in an interview as well, to take it all the way to the situation of today in the East Congo. But this is In Koli Jean Bofane, but also he actually gave us access to home movies. And those home movies have a peculiar story, because he and his mom were actually kidnapped when he was still a young kid by his stepdad, who was a Belgian rubber baron. And forced him to marry his mom, and then that became his stepdad. He had half sisters, half brothers, but he happened to have a movie camera and In Koli Jean Bofane allowed us to sort of also have a look at all those home movies. And that is a big part of all that intimate— him as a kid, a six year old kid during independence, or him in Belgium, or the displacement even. The displacement of being sort of taken to Belgium. You know all of that in the home movies, again, you have that clash between something very intimate and a bigger political picture. But he sheds a light from his perspective as a Congolese writer that I think was so crucial to also include. Then another third character is Nikita Khrushchev, and then we got in touch with Sergei Khrushchev, who also had a movie camera, and he was shooting his dad, Nikita Khrushchev. Also gave his dad when he was actually overthrown in 1964 and Brezhnev takes power, and he's actually written out of Soviet history. And other a lot of people in the United States or in America's know the peculiarities of Nikita Khrushchev's character. He was written out of, Soviet history 1964. And then with the cassette recorder that he got from Sergei Khrushchev, he sort of memorized his own history, his home life and that whole period and that we got access to, actually, to tell the story, not to make him to a saint. I think it's sort of interesting to tell the story from the point of view of a villain, right? Sort of the bad character that was— he was demonized in the 60s. Although I have to say we talk about decolonization. He will propose the decolonization resolution to get the global south on his case in the 15th General Assembly, which is a big part of the film. But he also was colonizing the East Block. So Hungarians are still very upset with this Nikita Khrushchev character, although in his memoirs, he would sort of offer regret. And the film starts with some of those lines saying, oh, when you make a misstep, history will not forgive you, and it will haunt you forever. The memory will haunt you forever. And we see images of the Budapest smashing down of the revolution in 90— in, sort of in the 50s. And so Nikita Khrushchev's entry is very interesting, because for me, you have, of course, the history of my country in relation to the Belgian Congo and how that was a neocolonial grab, in essence. This was not like it's— that whole independence movement was quite crucial as a pivotal point. End of the 50s,  beginning of the 60s, 16 African countries will be admitted to the United Nations General Assembly, and it's where Nikita Khrushchev gives a call to invite all world leaders to the 15th General Assembly. And like exploring that, I felt, oh, my god, this whole 15th General Assembly is so crucial because it's first time the decolonization resolution will be proposed, but it's the first time all world leaders, and more precisely, the non aligned leaders, such as Jawaharlal Nehru, Abdel Nasser, Sukarno, Fidel Castro gives his maiden speech at United Nations. We have Kwame Nkrumah. You know, 16 African countries are admitted. So the 15th General Assembly is quite important, and the Congo crisis will be the topic of that 15th General Assembly. So I could not make that in sort of the general structure of the film. And each time those intimate stories go back and are hung up on that bigger picture of the 15th General Assembly, which is also the world stage, in essence. Which in at one point it will be deviated, because Fidel Castro is thrown out of his hotel. And then he takes, upon invitation of Malcolm X, lodging in the Teresa hotel in Harlem. And so an alternative, sort of non aligned top happens by coincidence, sort of also spontaneously in Harlem, on around hotel Teresa, which is opposite Lewis Michaux's bookstore on the 25th Street and Seventh Avenue. And so the clash between that story of the Congo in relation to the world politics was, for me, quite crucial to tell. It's a story never been told, that sort of what was going on in the 15th General Assembly, in relation to how my country was sort of using the assassination of Patrice Lumumba as the ground zero, as a neo-colonial grab to sort of how they would deal with this decolonization, and how American, the CIA became, United States became an ally in this sort of neo-colonial grab. There's, of course, another fourth narrative voice, which is Conor Cruise O'Brien. He's the Irish representative who became the Special Representative to the Congo mission in 1961. But what I thought was interesting when I read his book 'To Katanga and Back' is that he talks and opens up his whole sort of personal testimony of the genocide in Katanga, and then up also to the genocide in 1964. And that was actually quite crucial also, to actually also add, by way, his son, Patrick Cruise O'Brien, is actually reading his dad's voice. So you have all these different entries. Not to forget that there's a fifth protagonist, which is the music.

Am Johal  33:04 
I wanted to talk a little bit about some of the kind of characters in the film, including this sort of, what would be a kind of mercenary back room players that participate in these coup d'etats, or they set the stage for these. And wondering if you can speak a little bit to, you know, those characters that don't end up, you know, having a name or in public, but have the story behind what's being planned in these places?

Johan Grimonprez  33:34 
Well, in essence, the dirty job was done by the mercenaries. They were hired by the Belgians, right? And specifically Mad Mike Hoare, I think Irish South African. There's a lot of South Africans that were hired, actually, but because South Africa was still sort of held in that apartheid state, and that was very much from, you know, the British Empire, you know, and Mandela only came to power, you know, in the 90s. So that apartheid state was was prolonged for a long time. But a lot of those mercenaries, even when it comes to the liberation struggle in Rhodesia, you know, Mad Mike was fighting there, they were hired in the 70s as well. When we talk about, you know, when Fidel Castro sending troops to to Angola, you know, in Angola, Mad Mike was, yeah, I think at one point he was there. But mercenaries were also hired in that struggle. And so it was a way of how the West was dealing with this independence movement to actually still, like held everything in check. And it was not dissimilar in the Belgian Congo, you know, when so called Mobutu was installed, the kleptocracy of Mobutu, with the help of the Belgians and the CIA, he was really propped up. Then they had to smash down the Lumumbist rebellion. And two thirds of the country was about to be sort of retaken by the Lumumbist rebels, right? And so there was this sort of notion that, oh shit, we going to lose the country. So Mabuto had to smash down with the help of the mercenaries. This whole Lumumbist rebellion. And that became very severe. And then, of course, action reaction becomes very sad situation, became genocide, basically. And then at one point, 1964 they were already actually deployed end of the 60s in North Katanga, Sendwe and Tshombe. There was sort of the Balubas and Moïse Tshombe, who was propped up by Belgians. There was even a rift within Katanga. And so there was sort of a civil war between North and South Katanga. South Katanga, where Lubumbashi, Elizabethville was, where Moïse Tshombe was propped up as a president. But even there, with the help, even of the United Nations, at the time they were closing their eyes. They smashed down with the help of mercenaries The Baluba Rebellion. They were talking 1960 even, and Lumumba is still alive. And then that was subsequently repeated in 1964 when they tried to free Kisangani. Kisangani was sort of Stalinville at the time. Was the headquarters, for a part, the headquarters of the Lumumbist  rebellion, and that had to be reconquered, and so they hired 800 mercenaries, but they also had the Belgian Commandos, and that's ludicrous, because there's still a celebration every year in Belgium. You know, some of them, of those dinosaurs, are still alive. Some of the mercenaries are still alive, who are very critical. They were, they gave a lot of criticism on the film. You know, it's not accurate, this and that and that. You know, when Malcolm X says, oh yeah, we have to free the white hostages, he says, you know, there's a whole racist stone in the fact that we have to free the white hostages. Nobody talks in the press in Belgium about the bigger situation that actually a country was sort of reconquered, in essence, and then mercenaries were part of that. There's documents that I found that are so hard to listen to, and some of them we even cut out. But there's a harsh one with a South African mercenary who literally, you know, says, you know, well they're cannibals, we can just shoot them, you know. So there's blatant racism, like drips from what has been said there, even, including our prime minister at the time. If you look in retrospect, what they said on national television, it's sort of embarrassing, but it was the talk of the day. You know, even, you know, even Eisenhower and Nixon were joking about, oh, in Africa, they're still like, coming out of the trees, like racist statements like that that happened during the NSA meetings. And I didn't put it in the film, but I stumbled upon all these things. It was...

Am Johal  37:45 
Yeah, you describe the music in the film as a kind of protagonist. And it's wonderful to see these figures coming to the Congo and seeing the context in which they're brought in as a kind of cultural diplomacy, which today, cultural diplomacy still happens on a big scale as well, in different types of ways. I suppose, certainly the French are known for it. But wondering if you can talk a little bit about how you approached the use of music in the film, because obviously, it's essential. It's a driving force of the narrative that brings together the collage and the editing and the different parts of the story in a kind of non linear way.

Johan Grimonprez  38:28 
Right. And it's also researching that period that I felt like it's not just an illustration, it's not just a soundtrack. It was very much soundtrack to a coup d'etat. I felt the music was very much also a political agent, historical agent. And so much part of that pivotal moment, but also a political agent. And, you know, just because I was just thinking about Marie Daulne, Zap Mama, who is reading the memoirs of Andrée Blouin, when she actually came over to our— she actually read it in the kitchen in our studio. She just got back from the City of Joy. The City of Joy is in Kivu, close to the Panzi hospital where Denis Mukwege is actually operating on all these raped women, right? He got the Peace Prize for that, and is very outspoken in the United Nations as well. But there is the City of Joy is where all these raped women are banding together, and by way of overcoming the trauma, they actually use theater and music and and Marie Daulne was giving a workshop there at the time, and it's just alluded to the fact that actually music can actually turn trauma into activism. And that's what happens in the City of Joy. And hence, it's also called Joy. It's not called city of trauma. It's called the City of Joy. And a big part of of what's happening as activism in the Congo today is actually rooted for a big part of women coming out of City of Joy, for example. You know, when it comes to what's going on, even with the conflict minerals and rape as being still used as a as a tool of war in East Congo. Even today, one in 10 women is being raped. But we were talking about the music. And hence, also for me, sort of hearing that the city is called City of Joy. It's sort of thinking about how we would construct a film. It became part of that. You know, when Patrice Lumumba is released from prison and 25th of January, 1960 arrives in Brussels for the round table, where they claim a couple of days later, independence, set for 30th of June, 1960 he's accompanied by the rumba musicians JJoseph Kabasele and Docteur Nico, African jazz. And on the spot in the Plaza Hotel in Brussels, they compose Independence Chacha. And you see, like music is not very far from the political stage, because they actually gave words to that joy and to that claim of agency, of how independence was claimed. Even, you know,when Patrice Lumumba set up as still being a sales agent, when he was advocating for independence in the city and went from bar to bar. He hired Rock-a-Mambo, and Rock-a-Mambo became also mouthpiece for claiming and talking about independence through this, throughout the city. But even the history of rumba. And I know I now talk a bit about rumba, but jazz is a big part of that as well. But the rumba, inherently has an interesting history as well, where the transatlantic passage to Cuba actually there's a huge Congolese community, a third, fourth generation that actually inspired a whole music scene in Cuba. That led to the chacha and then came back by way of the rumba, by guitarists, Congolese guitarists that worked in the trade of ships between Havana and Leopoldville, and actually sourced and initiated the rumba back in the Congo. But it's interesting that Pan African link is also part of the rumba. It's not just the jazz you know. Abbey Lincoln, for example—with that protest in the Security Council, which, for a lot of academics, launched the black militant movement—Lived for a long time in Accra in Kwame Nkrumah's independent, sort of first independent leadership. And she was part of that with Maya Angelou. And you see, there's a pan Africanist sort of connection as well. The cha cha then, the Independence Cha Cha also became an inspiration because it was very popular throughout the continent of Africa. But even became, literally, the name for the liberation movement in Rhodesia, across the border from the Congo. It was the the Liberation Party in Rhodesia at the time. And again, it's inspired on the music.

Johan Grimonprez  42:47 
And when it comes to sort of how the film is, book ended, you know, it's Max Roach, opening salvo, drum salvo that opens the film. And it ends with the scream of Abbey Lincoln. That scream happens in the Security Council, which was a protest organized by the women's Harlem writers coalition, women's writer coalition, of which Abbey Lincoln was part. And together with Rosa Guy and Maya Angelou. At the corner from the 25th and Seventh Avenue, invited by Lewis Michaux and his bookstore, they were soliciting women to come and join the protest mid February 1961. But you see here it's musicians that initiate that protest, and specifically, Abbey Lincoln and Max Roach was there. You know, this is not in the film. We had to cut it out. But Paul Robeson was also part of that protest in the Security Council, when all the women stand up, and he's part of that, or Amiri Baraka, for example. The musicians were very much part of that protest. But also how the music sort of— the independence sort of movement really inspired also the civil rights movement. There was a crossover there as well. And jazz was also a part of that. Jazz was a part of that. And so if you think about the song Johannesburg, which is the protest by women who tear up their apartheid passport in South African apartheid state. And that led to the Sharpeville massacre. That was the inspiration for Tears for Johannesburg, which became part of We Insist Freedom Now album, which is very much a political album. And I have to say, you know, while working through the film, we found a performance where we insist freedom now was in its entirety, broadcast on Belgian television in 1964. And the images that you see are actually on Belgian television. And I could not but sort of also include that in the film. But there's a deeper also connection to that concert on the Belgian television. Because I often say, you know, we have that relationship with jazz in Belgium, which is maybe a bit different than when still in the United States, a civil rights movement was going on, and jazz had a different sort of connotation in Belgium. It was perceived differently. And you have all these jazz buffs and all with sort of this album, We Insist Freedom Now, that was performed on Belgian television 1964. But what's sort of hushed up again is that there's a genocide happening at the same time, which is talked about in the film in 1964. And so that's wiped under the carpet. And for me, it's trying to open up that up and have that juxtaposition. While jazz is part of that, there's also something else going on. I think, in specifically with Belgium, because the othering, we haven't talked about this, but the othering for me in Belgium happened out there in the Congo and it was silenced. We were not allowed to talk about it and vice versa. The Congolese were kept stupid. Were not allowed even to study for a university degree. They were kept stupid. That was a fallacy also of the independence that actually there was not enough schools for Congolese, and it was kept stupid. And I think the articulation about that in Belgium is lagging behind, while the othering in the United States happened within. Even when it comes to an Indigenous population, or it comes to sort of the transatlantic passage, that othering made that there was articulation and confrontation, sort of within. And so that makes that the articulation happens very different when it comes to when one talks about othering in Belgium. It's different now. There's a huge Afropean community that is part now of the Brussels scene that actually force us to sort of rethink what's going on with our past.

Am Johal  46:45 
Yeah, in the process of the film coming out, in the process of making it, how did you as the filmmaker now reflect on the legacy and promise of a political figure like Patrice Lumumba?

Johan Grimonprez  47:01 
It was a learning curve for me. It was sort of knowing, you know, it was similar with Shadow World, the film, the previous film that came out in 2016 about the global arms trade. And I knew, you know something doesn't add up. And why are big part of our taxes stolen for, you know, pouring into foreign policy. And, you know, like every country now in Europe has to add to NATO. And, you know, maybe that's not the biggest enemy. The enemy is maybe what's going on with Mother Earth, right? And so delving into that subject matter, I came to realize, shit, you know, global arms industry is actually privatized and actually very much dictates foreign policy. To a very large degree if you think that three defense lobbyists are actually and number two, outnumbering politicians, there's three defense lobbyists for every politician in Washington. It was the same for Patrice Lumumba. It was a learning curve where I discovered things that I was not in the know of. Like William Burden, for example, who he's the president of the MoMA. He was adviser to the Pentagon. He was CEO of Lockheed. Had stakes in the mining industry, which was the conglomerate Union Minière, which was implicated in the murder of Patrice Lumumba. Who had stakes in the Union Minière, which initially was set up by Leopold the second. It has a long history, colonial history. And he's appointed US Ambassador to Brussels. And he's actually secretly a CIA agent. This is the president of the MoMA. And reading the cables that actually he literally is advocating with the Belgians to kill Patrice Lumumba, I fell from my chair. We found this audio in— which has never been released as audio. We found it at the Columbia University. But of course, in retrospect, through 60 years, now it's okay to talk about that the president of MoMA was actually calling for assassination. We showed it at the MoMA actually in New York, but it was vetted. It was vetted upstairs. But the learning, yeah, for me, you know, also as a kid growing up, you know, this is rooted in ignorance. I think this film was for me, also setting myself a challenge going in dialog with In Koli Jean Bofane, with Conor Cruise O'Brien, with Eve Blouin, you know, trying to come to terms also with Ludo de Witte. Ludo de Witte published The Assassination of Patrice Lumumba. And that end of you know, that was only end of the— it was 1999. That book came out and had all new information where the monarchy was involved and United Nation was involved, that I did not know myself as well. We never, we hardly learned about Patrice Lumumba, except that he was a communist, which he was not. He says, I'm not a communist, in the very beginning of the film, says, I'm, first of all, an African. I'm a sovereign leader who wants to stand on my own feet and make sure that the richest also come back to the population of the country, which is completely valid, right? But learning that actually the monarchy and the United Nation was involved. And there was a follow up to the book of of Ludo de Witte. There was a parliamentary commission which the conclusion that, indeed, you know, the monarchy was implicated. But Ludo de Witte, who was also advisor to the film, said, you know, well, that conclusion is sort of half baked, right? It's, the dialog is still sort of in the open. They're still discussing in Belgium. Are we gonna— is the is the monarchy is going to say, I'm sorry or not? But this is about reparation, right? They expressed regret, and I have to give it to the king and queen. They went to visit Denis Mukwege in the Panzi hospital, but it's a poor band aid on on a much larger situation that is not addressed. And all of these things, for me, you know, was an eye opener, working through, talking to Ludo de Witte as well. And Ludo de Witte even advocating that actually the United Nations, you know, don't be too mild, because Dag Hammarskjöld was actually implicated. Because it's a more difficult situation to describe, because Dag Hammarskjöld was with his back against the wall, United States and UK were threatening to withdraw the money from the Congo mission. But learning that even, you know, the United Nations was composite, that they're arm twisters, you know, that the CIA sends to buy up, you know, this whole, you know, global south movement in the United Nations that gains the majority vote certainly is a big shift in the United Nations, but our interests are sent in to actually reclaim that global south vote in the United Nations. These for me are things that I fell from my chair when I read that Howard Imbery, who had a building, held a building opposite the United Nations, which was a PR building with an— like a whole army of PR agents, which are all paid for by the CIA. You know, these are things that, and they all fit into the puzzle of how, you know, that sort of what was going on in the Congo at the time with the killing of Patricia Lumumba. There's a larger picture, of course, which is a template that, you know, a template that is still similar today. When one talk about Gaza or talk about Sudan or talk about Yemen, right? And for me, that was a learning curve. If you say, ah, how do you look at that? It's sort of like— it's not dissimilar with with the genocide in Gaza.

Am Johal  52:22 
My final question for you, Johan, is how has the reception of the film been? It's circulated, it's gone to festivals, and just wondering what you're hearing back from audiences?

Johan Grimonprez  52:32 
Well, what I really like, one is that I had another screening with Congolese sort of activist groups in Brussels. That it's, for example, pirated in the Congo. We had it at the festival, but then it was pirated, and then distributed around in the Congo, and then it's now, I think it was last week, released in Nairobi in Kenya, and that the grandkids of Lumumba are really in favor of the film. So there's a lot, the Afropean community in Brussels, because we opened in Vendôme in the Matonge neighborhood in Brussels. And so the Congolese community was very much part of that. Or like we had a screening in the Maysles Center in Harlem, which is very close to the Teresa hotel. It's precisely that sort of corner where, you know, Malcolm X used to talk, where Michaux had his bookstore. It's now a plaza, but the bookstore is not there anymore. But we had the Congolese community of New York organizing the event together with a Congolese band, and Max Roach son and daughter were there, and Archie Shepps' son was there, and there was a huge discussion, wonderful sort of debate. But seeing that sort of... that there is an echo that sort of reverbs from, you know, of that community is really wonderful. And another thing that I really like is that the film actually transgresses in not just being an academic film. Because I thought maybe the way the film is constructed, in the way of its sort of layering, and the way it's put together with the music, sort of as a protagonist, and then all these academic quotes, you know, it's like a academic PDF disguised as a music video. I was a bit afraid that actually people would not relate, that it would be too difficult, that that part of the language would be too difficult. But actually it's the opposite. It's actually that actually really takes people in, and it actually has been shown a lot. There was also in the film forum in New York, there was by popular demand, the film is back in the film forum in January, they had to program it for weeks, which is unusual. They usually do a week for a documentary, and it was always sold out, but for four weeks they had to extend. It was sold out for four weeks, and they had to bring it back because they didn't have any slots anymore. So that's I'm very pleased with that. I don't know how it's going to go with the Canadian release. But also in the academic circles, there's a huge echo that are surprised to actually see that sort of colonial grab as being sort of criticized in the way it's sort of contextualized by how the global south gained the majority in the United Nations 15 General Assembly, that that was a marker, and that decolonization resolution 1514, that was ratified December 1960 was sort of the flip side of that assassination of Patrice Lumumba. And that that comes across and that people relate to it, I'm very happy. I'm really surprised, actually, that people really, even a younger audience, because, like last week, it was a very young audience, and the stairs were packed in the cinema. Even had five month run in Brussels. It was still packed. And to see younger audience really connect to it, that I actually I thought it would be sort of for maybe people that have access to that story. But we did, however, each time, sort of confronted also for an in house audience, including the diaspora and the Afropean community in our studio in Brussels. And each time sort of, does it work? Is there sort of gaps, or is there here too much being told that we could skip over and so you could see that actually we had to work. We were forced to actually extend one year working on the editing because we couldn't clear the music rights, and that has helped that actually the film is put together in a sharp way. But yeah, I'm happy that actually people connect to the film.

Am Johal  56:38 
Johan, I just wanted to say thank you so much for joining us on Below the Radar.

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Samantha Walters  56:46
Below the Radar is a knowledge democracy podcast originally created by SFU’s Vancity Office of Community Engagement. The Below the Radar B-Sides are supported by Vancity Credit Union. Thanks for listening to this episode with Johan Grimonprez. Find out more about Soundtrack to a Coup d’Etat  in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in!