Below the Radar Transcript

The Power of Disability Part 3 — with Carmen Papalia

Speakers: Alex Abahmed, Al Etmanski, Carmen Papalia


Alex Abahmed  0:01  
Hi, I'm Alex Abahmed with Below the Radar. And you're listening to The Power of Disability, with your host, community organizer, social entrepreneur and author Al Etmanski. This is a six-part series of the Below the Radar podcast. The Power of Disability features interviews with special guests centring and celebrating the contributions of people with disabilities.


Al Etmanski  0:42
Hello, I'm Al Etmanski. And this is The Power of Disability podcast, highlighting what history has overlooked: the contributions of people with disabilities. Today's Power of Disability guest is Carmen Papalia. Carmen is a social practice artist who engages in participatory projects on the topic of access as it relates to public space, art institutions and visual culture. Carmen's work has been featured as part of exhibitions and engagements, almost all over the world, probably soon to be, but at the Guggenheim, the Museum of Modern Art, the National Art Gallery, Banff Centre, Vancouver Art Gallery, gallery gachet in the Downtown Eastside as well, the Tate Liverpool. Carmen, you've received lots of awards for your work. Every time I talk to you, you are engaged in another grand project. I encountered your work from the point of view of a community organizer, so I found your art practice to be really helpful to me in understanding and highlighting the relationship between citizens and their institutions for movement building, and, and frankly, for refreshing democracy. So I'm really excited to begin this conversation. Welcome.

Carmen Papalia  2:13  
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Al Etmanski  2:17  
Carmen, you've heard how I've described you. You probably have heard that before. It seems to show up in a lot of written descriptions of your work, but how would you describe yourself?

Carmen Papalia  2:27  
Well, I'm an artist and activist. I'm disabled. I describe myself as a non-visual artist, because I do not use words like blind or visually impaired to describe myself, since I feel those terms privilege visual experience. And at a point in time, I shifted value from the visual to the non-visual, just in my own life. And I use my non-visual senses as my primary way of navigating my surroundings. And it really informs the way I connect with others. Yeah, and I make relationships. And, yeah, so I say that I am a non-visual artist as a way to describe my relationship to visual culture.

Al Etmanski  3:13  
You made a choice, as you described it. What, was there one event? Or was it just a series of realizations that eventually culminated in your declaration that you chose not to use terms like blind or legally blind or visually impaired? Was there one particular moment?

Carmen Papalia  3:33  
Well, I guess it was when I stopped using vision as my central reference point. And I started trusting my non-visual senses and really exercising my non-visual senses. I think this goes back to when I was in my undergrad at SFU. And I was taking acoustic communications with Barry Truax, who is one of the first few researchers who were studying, you know, the soundscape and acoustic ecology through work with R. Murray Schafer. And so I was studying with Barry and was asked to, you know, kind of start actively listening and listening more critically. And I just spent a lot of time outdoors in my neighborhood and various other public spaces learning to listen. And I really felt like at that point, my worlds opened up. And, you know, I never really thought... I mean, people ask sometimes, when did you lose your vision, and I've never felt like it was a loss. I've actually felt like it was almost like an opening up of experience and perception, when I shifted value from vision to the non-visual. And that's really served as the basis of my art practice. And my line of critique when it comes to institutions and what we value in terms of art, and with regard to the way we make relationships with each other as well.

Al Etmanski  5:00  
I had not realized that this was part of what influenced you was the work of R. Murray Schafer. I have so much I want to talk to you about but I can't continue without asking you a little bit more about that and his work in helping us appreciate the soundscape and whatever. I know very little about it, but I have come to appreciate his work. Can you tell me how that got integrated into your practice?

Carmen Papalia  5:25  
Yeah, I mean, I think I built a practice around listening through that introduction to R. Murray Schafer work and Barry Truax and the few, you know, I think it was about six researchers, including researchers, including Barry, that were invited to conduct the World Soundscape Project, which was a project that happened through SFU and included Barry as well. So, and through this work like the, you know, the thing that really drew me in was this idea that, you know, prior to this research, there weren't really words to describe the various dimensions of the soundscape. There wasn't the word ‘soundscape.’ So, you know, this entire vocabulary and field of study grew out of a dedicated, intentional practice, which I really appreciate. I, you know, in my own practice now, as an artist, I really establish spaces and opportunities for people to practice using their non-visual senses, and also to exercise their non-visual senses. And I really think it is through that dedicated practice that we could find new words, find new ways to perceive, find new meaning in say, for example, the collected art object. We catalogue art objects, based on their visual characteristics, and those serve as kind of like descriptors in the museum catalog. And there are a few artists and scholars that I work with, who are trying to develop new ways of approaching an art object fit, say, through the tactile sense, critical framework for, what could we learn about an object if we were to feel it versus looking at it? How would culture have evolved or organized if we were a feeling culture, versus a visual culture? These are the kinds of the questions that I'm interested in. And I really kind of started thinking about these things when I was introduced to this whole world of soundscape studies. 

Al Etmanski  7:24  
When you use the word feeling culture that resonates on so many different levels. From a market culture or society to a feeling society resonates with me, in many ways. A lot of your performance pieces are related to this conception that you've just described. And I don't know which one to pick, I mean, maybe there's a more recent one that will illustrate it, but I know in for example, in White Cane Amplified, you walk down an unfamiliar street with a with a megaphone and use the megaphone to ask passers-by for guidance about where you're going. And I think you illustrate the social function of the cane, maybe actually to prevent people from following their natural instincts. I don't know if that's the best illustration of what you're talking about. But there's Mobility Device where you walk down the street to the sound of a marching band and use that as your navigation system. Could you comment on those? Or is there something more recent in your work at Banff, for example, that gets at this question of an appreciation of the soundscape of a piece of art?

Carmen Papalia  8:37  
You know, I think, so most of my work around the non-visual senses now is really about tactility. And but you know, I guess you know, I'm working with an artist here locally named Collin van Uchelen, who is the originator of this method for translating fireworks through subjective description and then tactile gestures made on the recipients back. So this was a partnership. This method was employed through this partnership with organizations and Vancouver called Vocal Eye Descriptive Arts where members of the blind and low-vision community could have fireworks displays during the celebration of light translated for them using Collin's method. I'm working with Collin right now around this long term project. He really has his vision for choreographing a fireworks display of his own design, and I'm supporting him towards that goal. However, those works that you referenced, like Mobility Device with the marching band and White Cane Amplified with the megaphone. They're really about my relationship to the white cane and to a symbol that I feel very much positions me and for its connection to an institution. This the disability support institution. I really felt like when I adopted this cane, I was adopting these politics and that I wasn't really comfortable with. So, there's certain ideas around what I had to do as someone who is disabled to like find my way back into my community to become independent to reintegrate where I already had connections in my community that were meaningful to me. And a way of learning that I think I was trying to, you know, I felt like I was, you know, made to assimilate back into visual culture, which I was not really comfortable with. So ever since I started using a cane, I've modified it. And so currently, I use a graphite cane. It used to have the white and red tape reflective tape on it, but I peeled it off. And now the cane is just, it's black, it just has the graphite material showing, and a wooden handle. And I really removed the tape in order to turn the volume down on the message that the cane is constantly transmitting, which is I can't see you and I need help, which isn't always the case. With Mobility Device, by replacing my cane with a marching band, I really was able to choose what I want to use to navigate my surroundings. It's very, like a playful sort of proposal, and also just a very fun project to engage in, having a group of musicians kind of serving as my navigation system. I think that project too is about this support network that coalesces when a group of people kind of like me around someone's access needs. With White Cane Amplified, instead of letting the traditional standard issue white cane speak for me and transmitting that message, I really wanted to, you know, use the words that I use to describe myself. So like saying, I literally was saying, I can't see you. I hope you can see me. I hope I don't bump into you. If you see me coming please step out of the way. And I would find myself at the you know, and I wasn't using a cane, I was just using this megaphone, I found my way to like a street corner and just had to wait there until someone kind of responded to my call to help me across the street. So for me that work is really about, you know, me reclaiming the social function of the white cane, and really putting that call for assistance out to my community, in, in my own way.

Al Etmanski  12:19  
Did you have confidence that your community would respond?

Carmen Papalia  12:21  
I think it was more of an experiential research kind of process and improvised process, so I didn't know really what I would discover. But the first person who did help me cross the street in my first performance of this work in 2015 in Vancouver was like an eight year old kid that just said, Oh, do you need some help? And helped me cross the street and I was on my way. So yeah, and you know, this was kind of, in contrast to the guy who yelled at me out his pickup truck window. Yeah, you never know. But, you know, I think this experience is much different than say, when I was using a white cane, and it was just like, it was really a magnet for attention. And really, for people to literally just grab my arm sometimes and try to help me cross the street even like when I didn't necessarily need it. And making these interactions, you know, there were so... They happen so fast, that I wasn't really even able to advocate for myself. So, you know, I mean, this would happen, you know, as soon as I started using a white cane way back when and I think my art practice in some ways, art practice, in some ways, is a way to address that social interaction, the assistance that I get that is not on my terms, the attention that I get that is you know, that where people are regarding me or considering me in ways that don't line up with my own perception of myself.

Al Etmanski  13:51  
I want to talk a little bit about your relationship with the institutions who perpetuate a certain way of interacting, engaging with having a relationship with people who are non-visual learners, or do you see yourself challenging that? Or are you, is it, is it worth reforming or transforming in any way I know, you've written an accessibility Manifesto, to foster a more creative, reciprocal ongoing relationship between citizens and their art institutions, at least, although it seems to me that it applies to all of our institutions. So I'm just wondering, and I do want to talk about your Open Access manifesto. But I'm just curious about, you know, the existing institutional apparatus for people who choose to be non-visual learners? Is it reformable at all? What is your relationship with that apparatus?

Carmen Papalia  14:51  
I think, you know, there's still this idea of assimilating into and kind of like, visual, the wider culture, the visual culture and also visual etiquette that, that even children are taught. And like I was working at this camp at one point, and there's literally this kid who had two prosthetic eyes, and he was being, you know, told to look at people when he was talking to them. So you know that that just doesn't, for me, it just doesn't make sense. Like, that's, that's assimilation. That's coercive, I think. And really, I think not valuing the ways that a person without sight learns. And I think this is really an extension of the medical model of disability. So this idea that there are certain norms or established norms through, you know, medical practice that we try to rehabilitate or restore to, which are false and oppressive and harmful for many people. And so, you know, my connection to and resistance of the medical model of disability isn't just, it doesn't come out of my experience of being a non-visual learner, I also have a severe chronic pain condition that has put me in hospital since childhood and still does. So you know, I spent a lot of time in hospital and have been in situations where I can't advocate for myself. So I really appreciate those care relationships where they are reciprocal, that are accountable, and that can be a conversation that can change over time, versus, you know, this standard set of protocols or practices that people adhere to, without using their discretions. I think it's my own traumatic experiences that have led me to like critique the institution, whether it's like an art institution, or you know, the medical institution. And I think these site institutions in general are sites of, you know, retraumatization, like, you might have been traumatized in a medical institution, but the museum might be a site of retraumatization, for you of how authority presents itself or how the expert is privileged, or just even through some of the processes that you need to go through in order to gain access, you know. And I'm not minimizing the harm of the medical institution, I think it's very harmful. And it really does. I think medical practice is really intertwined with ableism. And for the reason that it tries to, I think, restore to a certain norm or idea of the body that I think is false, I think people's bodies are, there's so much variation. And I think we kind of through the medical framework, we've limited the possibilities for how we can learn and interact with each other and you know, appreciate the various ways of being that our bodies make available.

Al Etmanski  17:40  
I think about six years ago, maybe it was earlier, but I first started to pay attention to your work through a piece you wrote, a manifesto that you wrote, an accessibility manifesto. I think the tagline was for the arts, but I've just seen it as an accessibility manifesto for citizens in terms of their relationship with institutions. Can you describe that manifesto? And we'll have links to it. It should be read, and in my view, studied line by line. It's, it's pure gold. But can you give us an overview of the accessibility manifesto?

Carmen Papalia  18:15  
Yeah. So in 2015, I wrote this piece called Open Access, and it was really me writing about my own position on the topic of accessibility, you know, what does accessibility mean, beyond compliance, beyond a policy model where, you know, a set of recommendations are kind of adhered to or, or legal repercussions. That, for me, is a very limited framework for what it means to care for other people. So yes, the piece that you're talking about is called Open Access. And I did a short interview and Canadian art, about Open Access, and that they added the tagline, an accessibility manifesto for the arts. But really, I had intended that piece as just like an accessibility manifesto for anybody who is in a caring relationship with anybody else. A lot of what's touched on in that piece is really, I think, in line with many of the principles of the Disability Justice Movement, that is a rather recent movement that grew out of California in the early 2000s. And really calls for, I think, interdependence. And I think, you know, it is a response to harmful, patronizing, like service provision models for accessibility. It's really like a disability led movement that aims to build capacity for care that's not otherwise available, due to governmental failure and ableism. And also like the violence of policing. So Open Access, I think, it's kind of this conceptual framework where we can start thinking about accessibility as something that's very contextual, very situational, and that really relies on the people in the room at any given time, what their needs are and how they can find support with each other and with in their communities. I like to describe accessibility as a measure of agency. So do you have decision making power? Do you have the ability to meaningfully participate, not as a just like where the terms have already been, like set for your participation, the few accessibility protocols or invitations that one might get from, like an institution to participate as a disabled person, but more as like an ongoing effort to hold space for a diversity of needs, that are changing and emerging over time. And so really think about accessibility as like a temporary, collectively held space. That's, for me, a very hopeful idea of what accessibility could be, because then it becomes this thing that we have to make commitments to make agreements around in our communities, and agreements that are living and that can change, are changing means.

Al Etmanski  20:56  
You've written in association with the Open Access, the statement, if the social conditions are disabling, then the culture will be disabling. And I was wondering if you could explain that a little bit more maybe in you know, an example of somebody who is able to get into a building, but...

Carmen Papalia  21:17  
Yeah, so this is the limitation of something like, like a compliance model for accessibility. So like, you can implement the ramp to, you know, allow wheelchair users access to a building, but like, how are they going to feel once they're there? Are there needs understood? Are there ableism? Is there discrimination or bias around someone who's using a wheelchair? So I think accessibility really relies on the social, cultural and political conditions of a space, and that really can change with the people who are in that space at any given time. So yeah, I think social conditions lead to, if they are oppressive, lead to an oppressive culture. And, and vice versa, I think, too. You know, like, I think our culture, ableism is still not understood or widely understood. And people still hold biases that they don't understand as ableist. So I think there's a lot of cultural competency work and culture, real transformation that has to happen around ableism. Because we still prioritize productivity. We have certain ideas around what it means to show up and participate and contribute. And these are very much in opposition to the rhythms and of the disabled body in many ways. And I think the value of people's lives of people who are disabled, just currently, we're in a bad place, I think, with COVID response and conversations around the medical assistance in dying act, Bill C-7 as well, it is affecting folks with disabilities as well, right now. So sorry.

Al Etmanski  22:50  
No, that's, that's okay. And what the listeners may not be aware of is that Bill C-7 proposes to expand criteria for accessing medical aid in dying to include simply the condition of disability, not related to their context, to their life situations, to the poverty they may be experiencing, etc. And it seems to me that that's an illustration of this movement away from a kind of almost rights-based, compliance-based approach to disability, if you will, by society to one that you mentioned already, which is Disability Justice-oriented. I hesitate to use this metaphor, I'm not a hockey player. I may not get it right. Or a hockey fan. But in my research for my book, I kept coming across references to Disability Justice from the folks in San Francisco that you mentioned, and my conversations with you and whatever. And it seems to me that where the puck is going in the disability movement is toward Disability Justice, and it's a, it's a beyond rights-based approach, understands historical reasons for that, but it's beyond rights-based, that you've already alluded to some of the reasons but could you talk a little bit more about that, Carm? Just maybe some of the key elements of the framework of Disability Justice?

Carmen Papalia  24:12  
Yeah, yeah. So Disability Justice emerged in California and around 2005. And it was when a group of Black, Brown and Queer activists came together at this performance collective called Sins Invalid. And some of these folks were Mia Mingus, Patty Berne, Stacey Milbern. I think the whole, you know, the movement for Disability Justice, the fact that it is not a rights-based movement. I think it recognizes that rights are fragile for folks, us disabled folks, but also folks who are Black and Indigenous folks and People of Colour as well. I think it's really, the heart of Disability Justice is mutual aid. So like building capacity for care that isn't otherwise available, and I think this has really been something that's so important to the disability community and its survival through the pandemic is disability-led mutual aid and community-based mutual aid efforts that serve disabled folks. And Disability Justice calls for a movement led by those most impacted. It allows us to understand ourselves as complicated and as holding many identity positions. And it allows us to, you know, acknowledge the intersections between us and of our experience, but also the interdependencies between us. So people with disabilities, if they were formally recognized, they would be the largest equity seeking group. And you could imagine that people are not just disabled, they, they are disabled and hold many other experiences. And I think Disability Justice is this kind of alliance politic that allows us to ally with other movements and causes for collective liberation. And it really is a response to carceral ableism. It is a response to the violence of policing and of the control and of the medical model of disability. So it really is about community care and safety. And in that way, I think it really is connected to transformative justice.

Al Etmanski  26:14  
Thank you. And we'll have a link. You know, at the end of this podcast, when it's available, Carm, to Sins Invalid, and to a Disability Justice primer that you've recommended called "Skin, tooth and bone" subtitle is "the basis of our movement is our people." And this maybe is too philosophical, but in from, let's say, from my generation, the way you speak about this echoes the work of the French philosopher Simone Weil, going back to the Second World War, what I keep hearing from you, when you talk about our collective, our interdependence, our collective liberation, mutual aid, the role of caring, caring relationship. I mean, a short summary of that would be the word love in Weil was, her whole approach to post Second World War was our collective responsibilities to each other. It wasn't our, the context, it was not in the context of rights. So it conjures up that for me, as well as the work of Paulo Freire, and his whole area of education. One of his books was The Education for Critical Consciousness. So in this work, are you, is this emerging exclusively from experiences? Are there, are there links into other movements, other liberation struggles? I'm just curious about that.

Carmen Papalia  27:34  
Well, yeah, I mean, it really does come out of experience for me, being someone who's relied on medical services since I was a kid and still do. I had, like, many traumatic experiences throughout my life that kind of had me question about what is a caring relationship? And what is a care? Like, what are these dynamics between the caregiver and the person who requires care that are not working here, and I'll reference Mia Mingus, who coined this slogan, “access is love.” And I think it really does come down to that as at a basic level. And, what does it mean to care for someone with complex and changing needs? What does it mean to include them? And what does it require to include them? And should you proceed if they're not able to be there? I hear a lot of institutions like, okay, we want to make an accessible event. We can have captioning but not ASL. And you know, like that we can't afford ASL and captioning. So we're going to choose one. But ASL is a first language for folks who use it. And captioning isn't a replacement for ASL. So like, I just I don't, I don't really understand that kind of wager, like, okay, we can we can do this, but we can't include these people. And I just kind of asked, Who are we... What, you know, what does it mean to like, if you're in community with disabled people, if you have relationships with them, you care about them. You know, what does it mean to have us all together in a room and participating in a meaningful way where like, my participation hasn't already been defined for me before I get there, which is often the case when it comes to like the invitations you get, say, or that I would get when I go to say a museum and there's like one of three ways I can experience a museum exhibit. I, you know, I often say that people aren't going to really care about people who are disabled or about disability until they start understanding it as a culture, disability as a culture. Yeah, that's really what I think Disability Justice centres is disability culture. It protects disability culture, and the cultural protocols associated with it, some of which are around access needs, and just like that ongoing care that folks need, because I think, yeah, outside of those spaces, Those intentionally, those temporary collectively held spaces, we're having to take on all that labour ourselves. And I think when we're in community with other disabled people, we kind of have this, there's that power in being around other people who have already agreed to a support around your terms. And yeah, that is kind of a culture I want to live in. But not just in these temporary collectively held spaces, I want that to be like my daily experience. So that's kind of what I'm hoping to do in my work about accessibility is really shift those perceptions around what it means to care or show up for disabled folks.

Al Etmanski  30:41  
Carm, one of the ways your work is evolving, or the container you've created for some of this work, now. You have multiple containers, but is the work you're doing with Mia Susan, and the Open Access Foundation for Arts and Culture? Can you just tell us briefly what that is? I know, you're just beginning.

Carmen Papalia  31:01  

Al Etmanski  31:01  
But you've got big plans. 

Carmen Papalia  31:03  
Yeah, so just this year, we've registered this nonprofit to a bunch of us. Me, my collaborator, mia susan amir, and a few of our collaborators working with us registered this nonprofit to extend our work and in our impact. We already had been carrying on a conversation about accessibility beyond an accommodation model, beyond compliance, for years. Many of those worked or met through places in Vancouver like gallery cache, Vancouver's Downtown Eastside neighborhood or the Purple Thistle Centre when it was around as well, and really have been doing our own kind of access work and kind of like advocacy work around various ways of being for a long time. And so after the pandemic and the uprising for Black lives, we really thought of this as maybe an opportunity to encourage institutions who say that they want to do the work of accessibility, to hold them to new commitments around accessibility and inclusion from a more Disability Justice perspective. So you know, our organization is a cultural organization that is rooted in the principles of Disability Justice and trauma-informed care. And, you know, Open Access my, my open access manifesto serves as a guiding text in some ways, but one of our major projects that we're working on right now is the ability to facilitate an Accessibility Consortium for local museums, galleries and artist-run centres who want to make new commitments to accessibility from more of a Disability Justice perspective. So we're not really talking about these standard offerings of translation services, although those are important and necessary for our participation, we're really talking about cultural competency and cultural transformation around ableism. So we are, you know, have a bunch of museums, galleries, and, or organizations now that are interested in being part of this consortium, we are going to help, you know, to establish a network where member organizations can, you know, share commitments and make new commitments. And also, you know, have this network who, our organization will have this ability to push these organizations towards certain goals that we'll be establishing through community consultation. So, our organization, me and mia are co-directing this organization right now. And we have like a 10 person advisory committee who all hold lived experience coming from different backgrounds and experiences all around the topic of accessibility. And we think of them as the half of my and mia's decision-making, and also just as the heart of the organization, so they really hold community connections that we are accountable to and very much in our early phases right now. But we have some really big plans and to do some really good work with local organizations and have been getting a lot of support to do it too. So we're not even, we don't have a public presence yet. So this is kind of the first time I've talked publicly about it.

Al Etmanski  34:12  
Well, thanks for thanks for doing that and more to come. I have no doubt. Last question. Carm, you mentioned earlier that you're doing all the labour yourselves, people with disabilities. For, so for the non-disabled person who wants to be an ally, or wants to be a better ally. A lot of learning involved. I find myself shedding constantly all my assumptions about how best to be an ally for disabled people. So any beginning suggestions for people who genuinely authentically want to be an ally?

Carmen Papalia  34:55  
Yeah, I think you have to know people who are disabled. You have to get to know them. Make real relationships with them. Take their leadership, especially disabled folks who are Black or Indigenous or folks of colour, you know, we really do. I think I would point to the principles of the Disability Justice Movement and really, you know, yeah, like, embody those principles, if you can. I think, I think really question your assumptions about, you know, some of these ableist notions that are pretty common or pervasive in our culture, you know, around, you know, what the standard presentation of the body is, or what, you know, what it means to contribute to one's community. I think we have to question these assumptions. And really, you know, unlearn ableism, because I think it's built into our culture and institutions. So I think really, you know, we need to take lead leadership from people who are disabled and the most marginalized among us. And yeah, kind of re-envision our public spaces, our worlds, our futures, around the demands and desires of the disabled community and people who have been historically excluded. Yeah, I think, I think, you know, a bright possible future for me is like a radically interdependent future where we can make countable and reciprocal relationships with each other, across disabilities, across experiences, between disabled and non-disabled people.

Al Etmanski  35:19  
Thank you. That's a great statement to end with. It's a future I think we all can identify with and aspire to so, Carm, thank you. Thanks for speaking with me today. As I mentioned earlier, if you can read more about Carm by clicking on the website, you can access all of his work and when his new project is ready with mia, we'll link that on there as well. If you want to read more about Carmen's work in The Power of Disability, you can check out my latest book which profiles Carm and other people in the Disability Justice Movement. My book is called The Power of Disability: 10 lessons for surviving thriving and changing the world and we'll talk to you next time. Thanks for listening.


Alex Abahmed  37:11  
This has been the third part of The Power of Disability a special six part series of the Below the Radar podcast. Check back next Thursday for the fourth installment. The series is curated and hosted by the community organizer, social entrepreneur and author Al Etmanski. Theme music for The Power of Disability is “There is Nothing Wrong with Me, Epilepsy by Todd Oseki. The production of the series is supported by SFU's Vancity Office of Community Engagement.

[music, singing: “Disease, disorder, what can it be? There’s no need for sympathy. Disease, disorder, epilepsy. There is nothing wrong with me.]

Transcript auto-generated by and edited by the Below the Radar team.
May 06, 2021

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