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Re: Pensions vs. Mortgages



Dear colleagues,


I thought that some of you might appreciate the advice that my financial advisor gave to me this morning.  


My situation is unusual in that I am single with no children but do have a younger sister (also single with no children) in Paris who brings in almost no income and who will need quite considerable support from me for the rest of her life. I plan to retire in 2024 at the age of 67. I have worked at SFU since 1990, and have saved a probably unusually large portion of my SFU earnings thanks to having no children and no car. I feel I was underpaid until 2012 when I became a full professor, but I feel satisfied by the recent gender and market-differential salary boosts. I bought my first condo in 2004 and paid it off. My sister and I also recently each received a quite decent inheritance from an uncle. 


n actual fact, the Sun Life DCPP and SFU have worked very well for me financially over 28 years, despite the first 22 years of relative hardship.  


Last night, I performed my own calculation of my retirement outlook under the two plans: I contemplated buying back 13 years of service to achieve a $52,000 pension from the DBPP compared to keeping the DCPP, in both cases continuing my current investments. I assumed that I would (1) ensure a very comfortable retirement for both me and my sister up to age 95, plus (2) help her buy a (quite small but not the smallest) apartment in central Paris so as to improve her living situation for the rest of her life. 


I calculated that I can achieve those goals under both plans. The difference between the plans would lie in the additional legacy that my portfolio could accrue prior to and at the point of death. It depends on when I die. If I die anytime up to 83 years of age, the DCPP benefits my legacy (decreasingly, and zeroing out at about 95), but for as long as I live beyond that, the DBPP benefits my legacy (increasingly). 


I finally decided that my physical fitness is such that I doubt I'll outlive the average life Canadian life expectancy of 87, so basically both plans are effectively equal.  


However, I think I will vote no because I am pretty well convinced by the argument that the DBPP is too rigid. Diverse people can benefit from the flexibility to plot their own diverse financial paths. One size does not fit all.


Finally, in case it is helpful to anyone (i.e. the beneficiary issue—bold face provided by me), below is what my financial advisor said this morning (prior to seeing the details of the SFU-specific DBPP). He didn't realize that I had been planning to leave my RRSP intact.


This is what he said:


"..., in regards to the defined benefit pension, this decision, is quite complicated.  My biggest objection is that if you move your DCPP and RRSP to the DBPP, you as a single person are making the pension plan the beneficiary of your estate.  In that, if you pass away, you cannot name a beneficiary of your pension funds unless they are a spouse, or minor child.  There are circumstances where you could name a beneficiary like your sister of the “guaranteed” portion of your pension benefit.  If you chose a 10 year single life guarantee pension benefit then if you died in year 6, your sister would get your pension for 4 years.  But beyond that any money in your pension plan just goes to the pension fund.  GONE. Your estate is sizable and so are your pension savings.  You would be much better served to not move your funds to a DBPP and keep them in the DCPP where you can name your sister as beneficiary or charity etc, and all those funds on your death would go to your named beneficiary.  Your net worth and impressive retirement savings are at a level that you don’t need the “guaranteed” pension income that a DBPP offers.  You will be more than comfortable for the rest of your life with the money you have already saved for retirement.  And the way it is now, you have full control of how much you can draw in retirement.  Under DBPP, you lose control of the amount of pension income you get per month.  If I were in your situation, I would much prefer the control, and independence of the current situation, to the “guaranteed income” proposed by the DBPP."


I wrote this message just in case it helps someone else in a similarly unusual situation and/or is concerned about the beneficiary question.


Nancy


Nancy Hedberg

Professor of Linguistics and Cognitive Science

Chair, Linguistics Department

Simon Fraser University

Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada V5A1S6




From: Michael Sjoerdsma <michael_sjoerdsma_2@sfu.ca>
Sent: November 14, 2018 4:50 PM
To: sspector
Cc: Nilima Nigam; Krishna Pendakur; Tamon Stephen; Martin Hahn; academic-discussion@sfu.ca; Michael Monagan; Nilima Nigam
Subject: Re: Pensions vs. Mortgages
 
Hi Stephen,

Voting members refer to those who vote on the motion. The constitution requires a minimum of twenty percent of members to vote on a referendum for the results to hold. 

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 14, 2018, at 4:46 PM, sspector <sspector@sfu.ca> wrote:

Hello Mike

Is that a simple majority of members voting (a smallish number) or voting members (something around 1,000)?

Stephen 

On Nov 14, 2018, at 5:44 PM, Michael Sjoerdsma <michael_sjoerdsma_2@sfu.ca> wrote:

Hello Nilima,

Under our constitution, referenda require a simple majority of voting members to pass. 

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 14, 2018, at 4:32 PM, Nilima Nigam <nigam@math.sfu.ca> wrote:

Dear all
            thank you for this really informative discussion! I did not even know of the existence of this forum until a couple of days ago, and am glad to have found it.


Apologies in advance if these questions have been answered elsewhere.

- Julian, you pointed us to a helpful report commission by SFUFA on a comparison between a DB and our DC+maxed-out-RRSP plan. That report dates to March 2015. Is there a more recent version? The DC plan has had newer options (including a fossil-fuel-free option) come on board since then. 

- Anyone from the SFUFA executive: what is the threshold at which a motion on this referendum would be considered 'successful'? 
Is it 50%+1 of the votes cast? 50%+1 of the total SFUFA membership? or some other threshold? It would be important to know this, it wasn't clear from statement accompanying the referendum question itself. 

thanks
Nilima

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 4:01 PM Krishna Pendakur <krishna_pendakur@sfu.ca> wrote:
Similarly, Tim Beischlag (Health Sciences) is organizing a session on possible downsides on Monday afternoon in Irmacs.  SFUFA will send out information on that one today or tomorrow.
krishna
______________________

Krishna Pendakur
Professor of Economics
Simon Fraser University
pendakur@sfu.ca
www.sfu.ca/~pendakur

On Nov 14, 2018, at 3:47 PM, Tamon Stephen <tamon@sfu.ca> wrote:

Hi all,

Thanks once again for many excellent comments, I want to respond briefly to a few now, though there are still some older ones that I hope to get to later.

First, I would like to mention that my colleagues Michael Monagan and Nilima Nigam are organizing an info session on possible downsides to the DB proposal at *AQ 4100* for *1:30pm tomorrow* (Thursday).
This is independent of this discussion (I think they, like many people, are not on this list) and organized for the benefit of the Math Department.  However, I asked their permission to advertise it more widely.
Note I probably will not be able to make it there myself - I am Surrey based ... one of the reasons I'm discussing this via e-mail vs. rather in person or attending fora.  I've never talked with Michael or Nilima about pensions, but I find them to be very insightful generally.  

I can add that I wish that there had been a more open ended discussion earlier in the process.  I feel that I'm learning a ton through this thread (though sorry for the mailbox overload), in many ways more than I did through SFUFA's resources including the recorded fora.  Which nevertheless are quite helpful, for anyone joining late, do read: <http://www.sfufa.ca/current-issues/pensions/resources/>.  I will comment that some of the information there is arguably misleading.  The pension cost calculator in particular frames the costs in a way that I don't find reasonable (ignoring inflation, for instance) and I fear may gives some people the impression that they'll be paying nothing after 3 years.  Incidentally, I'd like to thank David Broun and Julian Christians for offering some drop in times to discuss pension issues during the vote, I think this is a good idea.

A couple of other things I would like to reply to quickly:

Chrsitof, thanks for the clarification, and also the discussion about the implications of continuing past 65, which for me has been the clearest explanation so far.  I certainly encourage other to read it.  Personally I'm ambivalent about how I feel about [dis]incentivizing working past 65, but I encourage those who feel strongly about it one way or the other to read that e-mail to understand how each plan works for those near retirement (if you are currently confused, as I was).

Martin, thanks for your clarification on your position.  I think I understand it now, but I also feel I disagree, at least to an extent.
The point for me here is that I don't think there is symmetry between the DC option (where considerable choice is left to the individual) and the DB option (where no choice is left).
In some sense I might say that there are at least 3 ways you can plan under DC, say "Real Estate" (RE), "Life Income Fund" (LIF) and "Annuity" (Ann).  You could also chose a combination of them, or something else (for example, bringing your parents to Canada).  Under DB, there's only one choice, which is like the Annuity.  Let's take for granted that's much better, and call it (Ann++).  Even if everyone feels that (Ann++) is better than (Ann), probably many think that (RE), (LIF), bringing parents to Canada, etc. are better than (Ann++).  Arguably if people clearly understand there options and vote self-interest, then one can use that to justify a move to (Ann++).  But I think there's a good case that a bare majority for (Ann++) won't be altruistic in that the difference between (Ann) and (Ann++) is probably a mild gain for that group, but may be a very significant loss the others.

Let me propose a hypothetical.  Suppose that there were an opportunity to implement mandatory contributions to some kind of pooled retirement fund, which would provide the kind of smoothing of benefits that some would like.  Suppose this followed a new law that made all these contributions tax-advantage (so no 8% or 10% limit).  Would you favour joining such a plan?  What % of everybody's salary would you suggest we invest in this fund? How would we determine this?  I think it is a complicated question.  I could certainly imagine interest in some fairly high numbers from faculty who would do very well in such a scenario.  If we have a process where younger faculty are not engaged, it seems that a possible outcome is that we'd end up with a contribution of something like 25% passed by a referendum where 40% of the (mainly older?) faculty vote.  (If the last one is any indication.)

I may be getting carried away here.  I'm not generally opposed to collective action, but I feel that 10% is a lot to ask.  (25% certainly would be).
In terms of altruism, in a situation, like here, where the costs and benefits are somewhat ambiguous, but one alternative provides much more freedom to adapt than the other, I feel that the option with more freedom is likely to be more altruistic, even if we have a very limited understanding of other people's preferences (such as will be obtained from a low participation yes-no vote).

Best regards,

Tamon
________________________________________
From: Martin Hahn <mhahn@sfu.ca>
Sent: November 14, 2018 10:00 AM
To: Tamon Stephen; academic-discussion@sfu.ca
Subject: Re: Pensions vs. Mortgages

Thanks for another thoughtful contribution, Tamon.  As you seem puzzled by the conclusion of my note, let me clarify.  My argument was:

- What would be best for most people depends to a large extent on  personal preferences.
- We cannot know how these are distributed
- Thus there is no way to know how to vote altruistically.
[I did not mention that everyone's voting for what is best for them will, in fact, give us an _expression_ of the distribution of personal preferences]

So everyone should vote in their self-interest.

In doing that, consider the fact that you do  not now  know which plan will give you the most cash ( I agree with Oliver that it looks like DB will be better, but I also agree his numbers are too optimistic).  Only actual number crunching for your own case will tell you that.

But if DB is adopted, you will have be able to make the decision to switch or not after the numbers are crunched.

So (especially if you have only a few years of 10% contributions to make), self interest provides no reason not to vote for switching to DB.  And if you were hired after 2001, upping that ridiculous health benefits cap is worth a lot (my own family would run out of  benefits in 2-5 years in its present state of health.)

Hope this makes my conclusion a bit less surprising.

M



--
 Nilima Nigam
Professor
Dept. of Mathematics
Simon Fraser University