Below the Radar Transcript
Episode 114: Designing Equitable Spaces — with Anthonia Ogundele
Speakers: Fiorella Pinillos, Am Johal, Anthonia Ogundele
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Fiorella Pinillos 0:01
Hola, soy Fiorella Pinillos, y este es Below the Radar, a knowledge democracy podcast. Below the Radar is recorded on the territories of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh peoples. On this episode of Below the Radar, our host Am Johal is joined by Ethọ́s Lab founder Anthonia Ogundele, talking about her career in emergency management, the origins of Ethọ́s Lab and inequalities in STEM education and innovation problems.
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Am Johal 0:31
Hi, there, welcome to Below the Radar, really delighted that you could join us. We're really excited to have a special guest this week Anthonia Ogundele is with us today. Welcome, Anthonia.
Anthonia Ogundele 0:43
Oh, thanks for having me Am.
Am Johal 0:45
Yeah, wonderful to be able to spend some time with you. I've been admiring your work from afar and we know a bunch of mutual people and I'm wondering if we can just begin by you introducing yourself a little bit.
Anthonia Ogundele 0:57
Oh, wow. That's a really big question. I am Anthonia Ogundele, I grew up in Mississauga, lived in Toronto for most of my life, and then moved out to Vancouver about seven years ago. I have a career in emergency management, sustainability, and literally it was the mountains and my boyfriend that drew me out to the West Coast. And ever since then I've been really active in trying to, you know, make it feel like home and get involved and so a lot of the things that I've done have happened in kind of the last five years, because about two years into coming here. And listening to a lot of Toronto radio stations and staying abreast to what was happening in Toronto, I actually had to say to myself, like, "No, you live here now and what can you do when you're here?" So I made a very conscious decision to get engaged and try things out. And, and that's kind of who I am kind of what I do. I'm a mom to an amazing 13 year old girl. And I have an amazing husband who's a transportation planner. So I'd say it's an exciting house.
Am Johal 1:59
One of the projects you're working on right now is one that you founded called Ethọ́s Lab. I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about this project, where it began and kind of what you're up to now.
Anthonia Ogundele 2:10
Wow, it's a... These seem like really straightforward questions Am, but like they're so complicated, because they've, I think, anything that I start working on, I've been percolating on for an extended period of time. But Ethọ́s Lab really came out of a conversation I had with my daughter. And she was asking me, you know, can she go to the mall? And I said, No, you can't go hang out at the mall, but I didn't know where she could hang out. And then I started asking myself about space. And like, where's that third place where young people can hang out. And then where's that space where my daughter can hang out and really feel like she can be the fullest extent of her authentic self, as I like to say. And coupled that with, you know, trying to find different activities for her to do after school and that are flexible for her to engage in, I started seeing that there was a deep inequality in accessing STEM programming in particular, and innovation programming, which often, if you go to a public school, unless it's championed by the administration, or a teacher recognizes a giftedness in you, you don't actually have access to it, despite the plethora of free programs that are out there. And so I thought, well, there's just that kind of accessibility challenge. And then the second piece is, well, there's also that culture challenge, right, that there is what we know a deep under representation of Black people, Black youth that are choosing STEM careers as an option. And I would argue that it's that the culture hasn't allowed for a sustained community to be built from a young age. And so Ethọ́s Lab came out of that with Ethọ́s really being inspired by a paper that I have only ever written the title for, which is called Reimagining The Black Ethos, where a lot of Black movements are in response to many issues and contextual issues that are happening. But I was like, "Well, what might it look like to really build off of, you know, the deep empathy that the Black community feels or joy or the looking at cultural practice and, and looking at all the different things that actually make it really unique to be Black?" And so that's where Ethọ́s kind of came from. I've never fully articulated it, but what I do say is that really centering the humanity of the Black experience. You know, just creating a space where my daughter would feel respected, reflected and protected. So that's, that's the complicated origin stories, a little bit cross section with race, cooperative economics and urban planning and digital and physical and all the different things that I'm interested in. So I made a decision to leave my job to really address this.
Am Johal 4:58
Yeah amazing and so you have a space in Surrey with Solid State and other organizations. So what happens out of the Ethọ́s Lab space? What are you up to now that you've sort of left your job and started making this thing happen in the real world in Surrey?
Anthonia Ogundele 5:18
Yeah, I mean, that's been like a really great relationship being a part of the Solid State family. And it’s just great, when you're working on a youth project, sharing office space with youth is, I think, a very positive thing. But out of the Solid State space, initially, we were doing a lot of planning and thinking through what this could be. And then we've transitioned to running workshops out of there. So mostly, we have partnered with another local Vancouver startup called Cortic Technology. And they have created a program that allows for young people to learn artificial intelligence or code in artificial intelligence. So what we do is we teach kids how to code in AI, whether that be voice to speech, you know, facial recognition, and movement, and robotics and all these many different things that encompass AI. But we also address issues around bias. And all of the different other social impacts associated with AI, because one of the main foundations of Ethọ́s Lab is that we want you to be creators, and not just consumers. So understanding that AI is a part of everything that we're really engaged in, but they can actually make a change because they learn how to do it.
Am Johal 6:37
And the age group of young people involved with Ethọ́s Lab, are you between 13 and 18? Or a range of ages? Yeah?
Anthonia Ogundele 6:45
Yeah, it's ages 13 to 18. And sometimes we have 9 year olds and 10 year olds trying to slip into some of our programming, but yeah, it's typically 13 to 18, with a majority between ages of 13 to 15. The majority are girls, which is wonderful in terms of being able to expose the STEM. And, and it is the majority of Black youth that are attending, but Ethọ́s Lab is open to everybody.
Am Johal 7:14
And in terms of situating, the actual physical space of the office in Surrey, was this something you were intending to do at the beginning? Or did you end up landing into Surrey for a particular reason, in terms of the communities you're working with?
Anthonia Ogundele 7:30
Yeah, it was something that I'd contemplated only because Ethọ́s Lab is a regional initiative, many of these different types of programs, it's either you know, it's in Vancouver, or it's in Surrey, but I really wanted something that did cross municipal boundaries. But the relationship with Solid State was such that it was located in Surrey, and there was also, you know, just a large population of young people out there that wouldn't necessarily have access to these types of programming. And so that's a big reason for being out there. But it is also just mainly, like, really enjoyed the Solid State family. So we're out there too. But something to note is that the young people, we are majority Vancouver people that are part of Ethọ́s Lab, it is currently existing online, we use Zoom to currently interact, as well as we have a social Virtual Reality space called Atlanthọ́s where they also interact. And so the young people, when we were out in Surrey, when we were allowed to meet, would actually hop on transit and come on out, because they really wanted to participate. So they come from across the region, really.
Am Johal 8:36
You've been involved in so many different things. I got some intel from the Solid State people, of course. But one thing I wanted to ask you about was your involvement in art spaces, The Cheeky Proletariat being one of them. But wondering if you can talk a little bit about your relationship to art spaces as well?
Anthonia Ogundele 8:55
Well, I think it's interesting that you even identified it as an art space. I've tried to, it's called the gallery for pattern matching more than anything else. It's really just a space for self expression. Because art can manifest in many different ways. And so The Cheeky was just a storefront closet of a condo that my husband and I own. And we're both urban planners, and we're both curious about space and activating space. And we're like, oh, well, what might this look like? And so, when I do call it a gallery, if I do call it art, it really draws someone who might be a trained artist or that trained artist might pick the space, but in actuality, it's called The Cheeky Proletariat because it truly is cheeky proletariat, people who are teachers, caretakers, you know, they might be working in a restaurant, and they've never shared their work before. That could be a book. That could be art. That could be drama, and it's small enough for you to just kind of go and test and try things out. So most of the people are people who've never shown their work before. And it's just been a really beautiful community to see grow. I've tried to be as anonymous to the space, much to my failure. But you know, it's really about the community. They're like, 1,000%, about the community there. So there's a guy that comes in, in between exhibits, or like, displays, and paints it. And I've never met him. Like, I just transfer him money. And like he goes, and he paints and he says, "Who are you? Like, what's going on? I’m painting here, people are asking me what this is." Like, you know what I'm like, "Just paint the place."
[both laugh]
Anthonia Ogundele 10:44
It's like, it's a really weird thing but what's also been really beautiful is that, like, I had him coming and painting, but then someone would use the space and they'll say, hey, you know what, it needs a coat of paint. Let me just paint it for you. And then the last people that were in there, they were two 13 year olds that made a holiday window. And the parent was like, "Let me redo the lights for you." And like, redid the lighting in the space. And that's just kind of been the way it's started evolving, is that people just kind of give back to the space for the next person. So it's been wonderful.
Am Johal 11:17
Nice. So I was chatting with Matt Hern from Solid State. And I was like, I'm going to be talking to Anthonia. What should I ask her? And he was like, “Ask her about her basketball career.” So tell us about your basketball career. I don't know anything about it.
Anthonia Ogundele 11:34
My basketball career is, you know, I played basketball for most of my life. I mean, I played a lot of different sports and went to University of Ottawa, played basketball there just for a couple of years or for a bit and, and then I stopped. I actually stopped playing basketball after because I was like, I'm not going to do this for the rest of my life. Like I'm not going to the league or anything. And then recently, prior to COVID, picked up basketball. I play at the Strathcona Women's League. On ‘Hoops There it Is,’ is the name of our team.
Am Johal 12:06
Nice.
Anthonia Ogundele 12:06
A lot of stretching happens now, you know, a lot of like, not moving as fast as I used to. But I enjoy playing basketball. My daughter enjoys playing basketball as well. And if you know if you want to talk about the Philadelphia 76ers, I will talk about them. I'm a fan of Doc Rivers, and I could talk at length about where I think they're gonna go this season.
Am Johal 12:27
I'm so old. I remember Dr. J playing, so way back. Julius Erving, the Coca Cola dunk. Yeah, I've been going to Mount Pleasant, just to you know, social distance hoops just to.
Anthonia Ogundele 12:41
Oh, nice.
Am Johal 12:41
Move around a little bit. And then he [Matt Hern] told me something else as well that you used to manage Shad. Tell us about that.
Anthonia Ogundele 12:51
I'll put that in, like, strong quotation marks, but like, that was the word to use, I guess at that time. This was back in my mid 20s or so in Toronto. And, you know, I came across his album, and he had just finished winning a competition. And I reached out, I was like, “Yo, like, what are you doing? Like, do you need any help?” And he was like, “Sure, okay.” And eventually, it was me, a friend of his who went on to like, be his full time manager. At this time, I was working full time at the Ontario government. And so it was really fun to like, be, you know, working in emergency management and do my government job. And then after that, we would like to drive a couple of hours to go do a show, and then come back. And it was just, it was an interesting time. And so I did that for a period of time, and then made a decision to go back to school, but we've maintained a really strong friendship ever since then. He's like, family and just so proud of everything he's accomplished.
Am Johal 13:53
Yeah. So you worked in emergency management. Tell me about that. It's such an interesting background in terms of how you're doing what you're doing. But that is an interesting background with planning and all of that. What did you used to do there?
Anthonia Ogundele 14:08
Yeah, I worked in emergency management, or I still do work in emergency management. I'm an emergency management business continuity professional. I've been doing that since 2003. And, what essentially we do is plan for and prepare and respond to emergencies or disasters. So I often called myself the dark cloud in the room, you know, people come up with their wonderful plans. And then I'm always like, well, what if, and so, you know, I did pandemic planning, I led the G8 G20 emergency planning in Toronto, for the government. I worked with VNV on major exercises and that's it was a really interesting career from a provincial perspective, but, you know, for many different reasons, felt that there could be a lot more prevention associated with really responding to these emergencies. Like mainly when I was starting to plan my vacation around Northern flooding, right, like knowing that communities are going to be displaced for a number of weeks. Indigenous communities being flown out of their community. That I could plan that every year. Like that's, that's a problem. And so that it transitioned to now I then, you know, left and I'm still in the emergency management and business continuity phase. And they did that with Vancity Credit Union, and really helping them with their business continuity plans, and as well thinking a lot about community resilience. But I was also accountable for sustainability, as well. So managing Vancity's GHG footprint, and program and GHG accounting. And so now, I work on the side, moonlighting with the World Bank, working on public financial management resilience, post-disaster resilience in the Caribbean, so that's what I do kind of.
Am Johal 16:01
Wow, fascinating stuff. I was just thinking about Vancity where, you know, most of their branches are in the Lower Mainland or Vancouver Island and the physical concentration of spaces and also most of their banking happening here as well. That really localizes risk if there's a natural disaster or otherwise.
Anthonia Ogundele 16:21
Yeah.
Am Johal 16:21
Keeping people up at night. Um, why do you love crows so much?
Anthonia Ogundele 16:26
The funny thing is and again, I know that this was a little bug in your ear from Matt Hern. I hate crows.
[Am Laughs]
Anthonia Ogundele 16:33
I'm scared of crows. I can't stand birds in general. I don't like birds. Crows are the most malicious animal. So we've just recently moved to East Van. And I go to my husband, I'm like, "we've moved to their home." Like we've moved. This is where this is their origin story. Like this is where it starts. So I don't enjoy crows, they're very smart though. So I think there's a relationship that can be brokered with probably some snacks and shiny things.
Am Johal 17:07
Yeah, so how about parenting?
Anthonia Ogundele 17:10
I mean, there's so many different angles and conversations to have about that. I think, you know, my husband and I became parents to a tween. And so you enter in a really in almost a different way, I guess in that it's quite sobering to understand now what parents are going through. It's not easy, but it is a really beautiful thing to have such honest questions being posed by a younger person. You know, it's literally changed my life. So I sometimes say when women maybe give birth to a baby or something, they might start a mommy blog, there are tons of mommy blogs. And then, you know, I had my daughter and I gave birth to Ethọ́s Lab. [Anthonia laughs] And that's literally what it did, it changed my life. I did not want my daughter to have the same have the same conversations that I was having growing up and having to consistently reassert my humanity in this world and a place where she can have these conversations about what it means to be who she is, while also again, having access to like really great school. It really opened my eyes to the inequality of the education system. In a way Ethọ́s Lab is an emergency response to the gross inequality that's happening in terms of having access to tools, equipment, ideas, networks, that I realized that a lot of kids don't have access to.
Am Johal 18:43
Now, in this pandemic moment with your emergency preparedness background, and you know, doing a new project, I imagine you think about these things in such complex ways. And I think the kind of "return back to normal" as people call it isn't really what... People don't want to go back to the world we were in before. And when you think through projects that you're working on and conversations you're involved in, what are the kinds of things that you're thinking about, or trying to bring about in terms of what everyone should be thinking about into the type of world we want to move into, after the worst excesses of the pandemic part are actually over? But, we still have that other world too, to reemerge back into, that was so problematic in the first place.
Anthonia Ogundele 19:32
Yeah, yeah. This is a really juicy question, Am, because much of my contemplation is about digital space, technology, and kind of where that's going. And you can see the power in the tech space, in charting a path forward. As soon as the pandemic hit, it was very clear that if you didn't have access to the technology, if you didn't have access to the hardware, forget about it. It's almost like you don't even really exist in this time, and how do you continue to socialize? So conversations that I'm kind of bringing forward and having in particular with parents is that this is the digital reality. Like this is real. And that as much as I am concerned about the pandemic, and again, the mental health impact that it's having on families, there is a system in the tech space, and we see what's happening with the antitrust litigation that's happening in the States that is moving so quickly. And if we as a community, as adults, you know, me being a parent, and young people aren't able to begin to respond, now. It's going to be a completely world devoid of, of certain populations, you know, marginalized, racialized, like just across the board. And so that's what I think about.
It's complex without kind of getting into these concepts of the metaverse, right, these kind of parallel digital worlds that are currently growing at, like, an extreme rate, like when my daughter is attending a Black Lives Matter rally in NBA 2k, it tells you where we're going. And we don't have, a lot of people don't have the language, ask the right questions around what world do we want to be in? Or how can I be a creator or build into that space? And I think that that's why a lot of the big tech companies have gotten away with what they're doing is that these government officials aren't asking the right questions. And so even as parents, we need to be able to ask the right questions to our kids and understanding that truly right now, they're operating more as avatars than they are in like physical, like as people that you talk to. And that's shocking. And that does something in terms of psychology, how we relate to one another. So when we talk about building into the future, I think we can't be afraid of tech space. We really need to do a big push on digital literacy and give people greater access to the tools to be able to build into it. One of my consultants who I work with who helped build Atlanthọ́s, he said, "You know, when we were building Atlanthọ́s the social Virtual Reality space, we couldn't find any youth Black avatars." Like we just couldn't find Black avatars. And if we're moving into this place where there's so much more engagement online, like what does that mean, for the Black existence, the Black body? Black people are not are not a part of this tech ecosystem to even be able to build and create their own identities and what they might look like, right? When the first Black virtual supermodel was created by a 28 year old white guy out of England, these are some fundamental issues that I was like, what is the relevance, like, of the Black body? What is the value of the Black body or the Black mind or Black imagination? And these are all of the different things that kind of run through my mind and the conversations that I'm trying to have and having with people. And before the pandemic, this was like, not a conversation to have. People didn't get it, didn't understand what I was doing, didn't understand why Ethọ́s Lab would be focused on this stuff. But I think that there needs to be a stronger intersection of culture, like talking about our culture and our way of being and understanding like all these different STEM tools. I hope that answers your question.
Am Johal 23:20
It's so fascinating, because all of these things around, you know, authoritarian populism, and the way digital tools are used to whip up a frenzy in terms of reactionary politics, that these tools can be used in a much different emancipatory politicized sense, as well. And I think that's a real challenge in terms of how to make things happen. It's amazing. Just being able to provide access to the technologies and the space and context which people get to talk about these things in a proper sense.
Anthonia Ogundele 24:00
Yeah, and I mean, young people don't really get that opportunity to interrogate their tools, like that. And so, we're currently doing like, again, a five week program right now with the young people called ‘Avatars and Identity,’ to really have them explore like, Okay, well, what is it? How do I want to show up in digital space? What does it mean to be me in my physical space, and there are academic papers out there right now that talk about how you're psychologically different in your digital space than you are in the physical space, and that you can actually say you're two different people. And that was what happened, you know, in some of the responses to the Capitol building, you know, insurgents was that some people were shocked that they could be the same person online and offline. Like, that wasn't me, you know? No, it was you and I think we're coming at this intersection point where we really need to understand both our digital and physical selves. But, you know, to keep it very simple. We provide youth STEM programming to kids. [laughs]
Am Johal 25:06
What's what's next for Ethọ́s Lab? What are your plans for the future?
Anthonia Ogundele 25:14
Oh, my goodness, well, so we want it to be physical, again, physical, creative, coworking space with young people. And during the pandemic, we managed to work with young people to create a social VR space, again, called Atlanthọ́s. And so where we're going right now is, again, building our community of young people, the vision is that this will be again, continue to be youth led, bringing families and kids on board to see what they're interested in and what they want to engage in. But we're moving forward and looking at the development of our own flagship location. That's one of the big things on our horizon. But more than anything else, we want to work through our pedagogy, and we want to work through our curriculum on what are the things that we need to focus on. So we're going to, we're going to be looking at different partners. SFU has already come on board to say, hey, they want to support us in that effect, and UBC as well, but Microsoft, again, has been a really big partner wanting to help us in that, and a lot of great members of the community have said they want to come along onboard. But really, there's so many big issues happening in this world. And a lot of STEM is huge. I would even call it STEAM because we really integrate art and culture into what we're doing. So it's like what are the things we want to focus on? And that's kind of where we are, but that's what's next for Ethọ́s Lab. We're growing our community. We'd love for any young person who is curious, open and wanting to really understand the world around them in a re centered way. Again, really centering the humanity, the Black experience, implying that we take a decolonized, anti racist approach to teaching technology and teaching STEM. If anyone's interested in that then come on board, you know, if you'd like to play among us. Sure, come on board too.
Am Johal 27:10
Anthonia, thank you so much for sharing some of your own story and the story of Ethọ́s Lab and joining us on Below the Radar today. We just love the work you're doing.
Anthonia Ogundele 27:20
Aw, thanks so much.
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Fiorella Pinillos 27:23
Below the Radar is a knowledge democracy podcast created by SFU's Vancity Office of Community Engagement. Thanks for listening to our conversation with Anthonia. Head to the show notes to learn more about Ethọ́s Lab, their social Virtual Reality space Atlanthọ́s, as well as some of the other initiatives covered in this episode. Gracias y hasta la próxima.
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